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Wakeup Call: One down, two to go for Pirates

By Dejan Kovacevic | Trib Total Media

Brief and to the Point …

>> The Wednesday column is a collection of parting thoughts on Pittsburgh sports as I pack up for the big trip today. Had a bunch of stuff I wanted to get out, then the Wandy Rodriguez trade broke late at night, so this format worked out for the best in the end.

Since the column is in a similar format to this daily entry, I’ll keep this one short.

>> Here’s the Astros’ perspective on the trade, from the Houston Chronicle’s site. Rodriguez took the trade pretty hard. But for those unfamiliar with team sports, that’s what you want in a player. The Penguins experienced that recently when acquiring Brandon Sutter, who had become deeply attached to the Hurricanes. Those types of people truly commit.

>> Here’s Rodriguez’s official page.

>> Here’s a full-length feature in Sports Illustrated from 2010 on Rodriguez, including background on how he faked his name at one point.

>> If you missed it on the game thread, this was my talk with Evan Meek before first pitch yesterday …

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6BvMRwlOGY

>> Reader Jeff DeBaldo came through with a firm answer regarding my question yesterday about vacating victories as applied to statistics. This is the full NCAA form.

>> The chat has to be pushed back to Friday because of the travel. We’ll still go at the usual time — noon — live from London’s new Olympic Stadium before the Opening Ceremony.

Comments

  1. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    I like the trade……Can’t wait for the next

  2. RobertoForever says:

    Agree with Ryan.

    Awesome addition. Dealt only prospects who were from positions of strength. And keep Marte, Cole, Tallion, Heredia, Bell and Polanco.

  3. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    Roberto

    So far anyways!!

  4. Boise Bucco says:

    I didn’t know he was the last member of their ’05 World Series team…never even occurred to me.

    When’s the last time the Bucs had a World Series player?

  5. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    BB…….today, but the manager was one.

    Actually, off the top of my head……….

  6. Scott says:

    You mean before AJ Burnett?

  7. Boise Bucco says:

    I’m in the 2010 roster digging…what an awful question to ask right before bed…I MUST FIND ONE

  8. Boise Bucco says:

    CRAP WTF HOW COULD I MISS…i’m goin to bed now. zero AJ fistpumps for my question.

  9. RobertoForever says:

    Boise Bucco

    When was the last time the the Bucs had TWO World Series players?

    FIXED

  10. Boise Bucco says:

    Man, I really don’t wanna look, but I really do…my late-90′s/early 2000′s roster memory is fuzzy.

  11. Boise Bucco says:

    FOUND IT

    2005 Bucs had THREE World Series players; Jose Mesa (’95, 97 w/CLE) Benito Santiago (’02 w/SF) and Mark Redman (2003 Florida, also he was their only WS winner)

    lol I feel like I really accomplished something there.

  12. DMFH says:

    Bizrow, you can add mine to your list of locations. Thule Air Base, Greenland.

  13. Zack says:

    Deal for a long term bat ideally, and bring up Marte to help cap off a great season. I like this trade, and my confidence in the front office just skyrocketed, apart from their detail to what people can’t do in the minors….

  14. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    WAY TO GO BB

  15. Baywatch says:

    Anyone else besides me having a difficult time finding Wandy’s response to the trade that DK alluded to up there? I opened the link but in the first couple stories I read could find nothing from Rodriguez. Help?

  16. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    @Bay

    I caught it from one of the links from twitter/facebook. Think it was Rob B that had the link………

  17. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    Completely unrelated, and I apologize in advance, but…..

    R.I.P. Sherman Hemsley (1938 – 2012)

    DK: Movin’ on up …

  18. Skip says:

    I don’t like the trade. They gave up way too much for Rodriguez.

  19. Zack says:

    On a note about Marte, every player the Pirates called up produced at the same rate they did in the minors for the amount of time they spent in the majors. If you know that, as they very well do, call him up for the pennant race and if he doesn’t work out the next year, option him back down. BUT AT LEAST use him to the advantage now. Seriously. It happened with all three guys Presley, Tabata and Alvarez. Are they afraid of the solid rate of production these guys produced upon first callup?

    DK: ‘Afraid’ appears to be the operative term here.

  20. manny _sanguine says:

    Sherman’s movin’ on up…

    Clearly they still need some offensive help but I like the Wandy trade. No it wasn’t a “good deal” where you pick up someone cheaply or fleece some other GM. But I don’t think they over paid either. They just paid full retail price which is what contenders sometimes have to do in the midst of a pennant race. And I give them credit for doing that. Time will tell. Now go get a bat, Neal. And call up Starling for cry-eye.

  21. Baywatch says:

    Thanks, Ryan. But I still never found anything with his response. If someone finds a link directly to the page on which he took the news of the trade hard, could you please link me to it? Thanks.

    DK: Just did it, Bay. Take a look up there. Sorry about that.

  22. Baywatch says:

    Thanks, DK. Safe travels!

  23. pghboyinca says:

    This trade only makes sense if they acquire a corner outfield bat and some bench strength. Without those they are going nowhere, so ideally it would be better to secure those first. If we don’t get the others I’d rather have the prospects than Wandy if we stand pat with the lineup.

  24. smoky burgess says:

    hey Baywatch…good to see you on here

  25. pghboyinca says:

    If we can get a bat (or bring Marte up) and strengthen the bench Ilike the Wandy addition. But please no more Pressley, Sutton, Gorky’s, etc….. It is bad enough parading Barmes and Barajas out there with the pitcher as well. On osem night you have 2-3 legitimate hitters in the lineup. BTW outisde of a hot 2 weeks what is up with Casey M? Our offseason position players acquisitions absolutely suck……

  26. JRay3 says:

    Wow went to the Dbacks/Rockies game getting back in and see this whopper of a move. I have asked for a SP and a bat and we are halfway there. Don’t understand why people would be upset with a proven MLB starter who was 7-9 on the worst team in baseball and has a high K/BB rate. Pitching wins championships and we added one of the best available as other teams in contention doing the same…Tigers with Sanchez , Dempster soon to Braves or Dodgers.

    The prospects we gave up are minimal. Grossman would be blocked forever and fell out of favor earlier this season for reasons undisclosed and has struggled in AA ball. Colton Cain good grief not sure he will ever be a MLB pitcher, and Rudy Owens was a 35th round draft choice who does not throw hard and pitches to contact anyone remember Zach Duke? The Pirates obviously have never been that high on Owens or he would have been given one chance by now.

    We all want the team to show some aggressiveness and they have, this is a move to win this year, for that I applaud NH and the FO as this makes the team better, now pleas find us that bat that we need!

  27. Link says:

    If anyone is interested, Todd Graham was interviewed on Seattle radio today for Pac 10 media day. He talks about the Pitt situation at the beginning of the interview. Here is the link

    http://www.sportsradiokjr.com/pages/softy_page.html

    This is the first time I’ve had a chance to hear this guy (I live in Seattle), but my first impression isn’t a good one. Spineless comes to mind.

  28. Thundercrack says:

    Will be interesting to see in a few years if the national types had it right or wrong about Grossman and Owens.

    And at this point I hope they bring up Marte just so I don’t have to hear about it anymore.

  29. Drew71 says:

    I cut my ear shaving this morning.

    Just thought I’d share.

  30. Drew71 says:

    It also proves that I am not a sports columnist about to appear on TV.

    - I shaved.

    Further proof?

    - Gonna put a dress shirt on.

    (As soon as I stop the bleeding.)

  31. bobhasis says:

    Yes I would like to really find out about Marte. The national media analysts and talent scouts don’t always get it right.
    LaHair is up and can’t hit lefties
    Harper with all of his hype has some question marks
    Freeman and Hayward are in Atlanta and batting .273 and.267 respectively
    Crespedes has landed in Oakland.

    The point is they are up, and helping their teams win games – AND – gaining experience.

    Let’s get rolling Mr. Huntington; you are wasting time and opportunity

  32. Drew71 says:

    Stealing from other posts about the trade…

    - Didn’t over or under pay. Just paid the going rate.
    - Makes sense IF they also get a starting bat.

    A starting bat immediately improves the bench, where the current starter moves. The reverse is not true if they just pick up a bench bat. Of course they could do both; just outlining my priorities.

    I like the relative length of Wandleman’s remaining contract. (If he sucks, his name changes to Wanda.)

    If nothing else, unlike last season’s hope-is-a-strategy too-late trades, this one just screams that the Pirates’ brass believe they are in a pennant race.

  33. JAL says:

    JAL’s Albatross Morning Links

    GENERAL DAILY UPDATED BASEBALL SITES

    1- MLB Transactions

    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/transactions

    2-MLB Trade Rumors-Pirates

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/pittsburgh_pirates/

    3 Go Buccos- Pirate News (from external sources)

    http://gobuccos.com/pittsburgh-pirate-news/

    PIRATE BLOGS

    4—Pirates Prospects

    Pirates Notebook: Breaking Down the Wandy Rodriguez Trade

    http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/07/pirates-notebook-breaking-down-the-wandy-rodriguez-trade.html

    Wilson And Relievers Make Indians’ 3 Early Runs Hold Up

    http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/07/wilson-and-relievers-make-indians-3-early-runs-hold-up.html

    The Departed – Grossman, Owens, Cainwer

    http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/07/the-departed-grossman-owens-cain.html

    Prospect Watch: Solid Starts From Kingham, Wilson and Heredia

    http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/07/prospect-watch-solid-starts-from-kingham-wilson-and-heredia.html

    First Pitch: Why I Don’t Like the Wandy Rodriguez Trade

    http://blogs.piratesprospects.com/williams/first-pitch-why-i-dont-like-the-wandy-rodriguez-trade/

    5 Bucs Dugout

    Wandy Rodriguez Trade Analysis: Pirates Deal Robbie Grossman, Rudy Owens, Colton Cain For Astros Lefty

    http://www.bucsdugout.com/2012/7/25/3185309/wandy-rodriguez-trade-analysis-pirates-deal-robbie-grossman-rudy-owens-colton-cain-astros

    6 Rumbunter

    Wandy Rodriguez to Pittsburgh Pirates for Rudy Owens, Robbie Grossman, Colton Cain

    http://rumbunter.com/2012/07/24/wandy-rodriguez-to-pittsburgh-pirates-for-rudy-owens-robbie-grossman-colton-cain/

    The Disappearance of Alex Presley

    http://rumbunter.com/2012/07/24/the-disappearance-of-alex-presley/

    7 McEffect

    Whaddya Know, Good Teams Lose Too!

    http://www.mceffect.com/2012/07/whaddya-know-good-teams-lose-too.html

    8 The Green Weenie

    Bucs Haunted By Ghost Of PNC Past, Lose To Maholm And Cubs 5-1

    http://oldbucs.blogspot.com/2012/07/bucs-haunted-by-ghost-of-pnc-past-lose.html

    9 Raise the Jolly Roger

    Pirates upgrade rotation with Wandy Rodriguez

    http://raisethejollyroger.com/2012/07/pirates-upgrade-rotation-with-wandy-rodriguez/

    10 WHY GAVS

    The Pirates trade for Wandy Rodriguez:

    http://whygavs.com/pittsburgh-pirates/july-2012/the-pirates-trade-for-wandy-rodriguez.html

  34. JAL says:

    NEWSPAPERS and MAGAZINES and Other Media

    11 CBS Sports

    Pirates-Cubs Game Preview

    http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/gametracker/preview/MLB_20120725_CHC@PIT

    12 Washington Post

    Pirates acquire LHP Wandy Rodriguez from the Astros for minor leaguers

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/pirates-acquire-lhp-wandy-rodriguez-from-the-astros-for-minor-leaguers/2012/07/24/gJQAaxBm7W_story.html

    13 Chicago Tribune

    Maholm tough on old team

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-0725-bits-cubs-pirates-chicago–20120725,0,6691191.story

    14 The Kittanning Paper

    BUFFONE: What’s the Holdup with Promoting Marte?

    http://www.kittanningpaper.com/2012/07/25/buffone-whats-the-holdup-with-promoting-marte/29062

    15 Houston Chronicle

    On Astros: Cleaning house complete with Wandy deal

    http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2012/07/24/pirates-said-to-be-focused-on-wandyrodriguez-in-search-for-pitching/

    16 Sweetspot

    Astros-Pirates trades looks like a win-win

    http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/27288/astros-pirates-trades-looks-like-a-win-win

    17 NY Times

    Two Decades Later, the Pirates Trade For a Lefty Starter Again

    http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/two-decades-later-the-pirates-trade-for-a-lefty-starter-again/

    SPORTS WEBSITES

    18 PBC Site

    Pirates add rotation depth with deal for Wandy

    http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120724&content_id=35495672&vkey=news_pit&c_id=pit

    Notebook: Strong home record has Pirates hanging tough

    http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120724&content_id=35491760&notebook_id=35491762&vkey=notebook_pit&c_id=pit

    19 Baseball Prospectus

    Not All Who Wandy Are Lost

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=17764

    20 Fangraphs

    Fans Want More Instant Replay But Does MLB Care?

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/fans-want-more-instant-replay-but-does-mlb-care/

  35. JAL says:

    Steelers Blogs

    21 Behind the Steel Curtain

    Steelers, Mike Tomlin Make a Deal

    http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2012/7/24/3184240/steelers-mike-tomlin-make-a-deal

    Steelers Training Camp: Time to Find the Answers to Important Offseason Questions

    http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2012/7/24/3175952/steelers-training-camp-todd-haley-ben-roethlisberger-mike-wallace-contract

    22 Steelers Depot

    -Pittsburgh Steelers Nine Biggest Training Camp Battles To Watch

    http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/07/pittsburgh-steelers-nine-biggest-training-camp-battles-to-watch/

    23 Steelers Gab

    Prisco Breaks Down Every Steelers Game with a Final Score

    http://www.steelersgab.com/2012/07/23/prisco-breaks-down-every-steelers-game-with-a-final-score/

    24 Nice Pick Cower

    Steelers Ranked 6th In PFT’s Preseason Power Rankings

    http://nicepickcowher.com/2012/07/22/steelers-ranked-6th-in-pfts-preseason-power-rankings/

    Pitt Blogs

    25 Pitt Blather

    Now It Is Just Spiking the Ball

    http://www.pittblather.com/2012/07/24/now-it-is-just-spiking-the-ball/

    26 Cardiac Hill

    Pitt Fans Rip Todd Graham at #AskASU

    http://www.cardiachill.com/2012/7/24/3184291/pitt-football-todd-graham-askasu

    WVU Blogs

    27 Metro News

    Geno ‘Sings’ Praises of the Mountaineers

    http://www.wvmetronews.com/wvu.cfm?func=displayfullstory&storyid=54013

    28 WV Illustrated

    Mountaineer Meets Big 12 Mascots

    http://www.wvillustrated.com/story/19093592/mountaineer-meets-big-12-mascots

    Soccer(football)

    29 Sky Sports

    Transfer Clockwatch

    http://www1.skysports.com/transfer-centre/clockwatch

    30 Daily Telegraph

    Liverpool manager Brendan Rodgers has final decision on Andy Carroll future, insists chairman Tom Werner

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9423245/Liverpool-manager-Brendan-Rodgers-has-final-decision-on-Andy-Carroll-future-insists-chairman-Tom-Werner.html

    31 World Soccer Daily

    10 Ten stories you need to read, July 24th, 2012

    http://www.worldsoccer.com/247/world-soccer-daily-10-stories-you-need-to-read-24th-july-2012

  36. JAL says:

    Albatross Fleetwood Mac 1969. Danny Kirwan lead guitar. Close to a dirge which seems appropriate after two losses to the Cubs

  37. Drew71 says:

    That’s some animal JAL.

    Does it also mean you don’t like Wandleman’s contract?

    If so, very cool use of the Albatross thing.

  38. Karen22 says:

    Safe journeys, Dejan—bring home some gold!

    I like the trade. Now BATS, please…and a flying Starling.

  39. JAL says:

    Drew

    I have no problem with Wandy, should be good addition to rotation. Pirates albatross is the leadoff spot, they have no one there who gets on base, which is the main job of a leadoff hitter.

  40. Milo Hamilton says:

    The Phils have signed Cole Hamels. 6 years – $144 million. That’s $24 million per season, same as Cliff Lee.

  41. Jandy says:

    Drew, EYE hope the bleeding stopped.

    Not sure about this trade, I need to read more on Wandy. But so far seems most like it…especially IF we get a bat too.

    JAL, you are one clever dude…albatross.

  42. Jandy says:

    Woah…the Preds did indeed match the offer sheet that Philly offered Shea Weber. Good news.

  43. Milo Hamilton says:

    I’ve had eagles, but never an albatross.

  44. Curt says:

    This is a great addition. Wandy is instantly our #2-#3 easily in the rotation.

    Is it just me or did the Dodgers virtually give up nothing to land Hanley Ramirez?!?
    Maybe they’re taking on his full salary to help relieve the Marlins.
    And I guess their grand idea/era of spending money would fill the seats and make a contender down there is officially done. Lol.

  45. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    Hanley Ramirez was traded to the Dodgers for 2 guys I’ve never heard of. Interesting…..

  46. Milo Hamilton says:

    @Playoffs

    One of the players traded for Hanley Ramirez was Scott McGough from Plum High School. Pig Legs will be interested in that.

  47. TJA says:

    Have a great time in London, DK. Looking forward to your reports.

  48. JMB says:

    Looking at Tim Williams blog about why he doesn’t like the trade, the question is how many people would have given up that package for Paul Maholm. If Grossman and Cain become good MLB’ers (and Wandy is mediocre), then NH should catch some heat for not just keeping Paul Maholm for $9m for this season.

    After having a night to think about it, I don’t hate the deal, but I don’t love it. My sentiments, “what else you got in the hopper NH?”

    I’m still hoping for our ‘We got Cliff Lee, dude!” moment like the Rangers had two years ago, and Wandy isn’t that.

    I have to wonder if Upton going off the block made this deal possible. Grossman would have had to be part of a package for Upton, but the D’backs wanted closer to MLB guys anyway — supposedly.

  49. JMB says:

    Have a great trip DK!

    We’ll try and hold down the fort while you’re frolicking in London’s version of Olympia.

  50. SeanAY says:

    Not head over heels about the deal for Wandy, but he was a guy I mentioned last week as being a true risk-reward kind of guy.

    Here’s what I said a week ago today:

    “I like Wandy on principle – tough lefty starter, and you might expect an uptick from him just because he might get juiced to play for a contender.

    The fact that he would be with his next club for two more years (three, if he exercises his player option after being dealt) is both a boon and an albatross. On one hand, you get possibly three more years of him, albeit for a not-insignificant chunk of change.

    On the negative side, if he starts declining…I mean, he’d be stupid not to exercise the option then, right? If he starts playing poorly, he can basically hold your rotation hostage for an extra year and bilk $13M from you. Not out of the question, considering he’ll be 35 in the last year.

    Personally, I think if it can be a relatively low-cost deal – I’m not sure how much Houston would be able to hold out for in a trade – then I’d make it, and roll the dice that Rodriguez is effective. “

  51. JMB says:

    HanRam was a straight salary dump. The Dodgers are paying the full contract for a guy who has been overpaid the last two years.

    If he becomes his ’06-’10 self, this is an awesome deal for LAD. If he continues his regression, this will be a money pit.

  52. SeanAY says:

    Anyway, all that said…I’m pleased with the results. I’m not much of a minor league watcher, but I know that Grossman was a player that was valued highly by the front office. Owens was a guy that I thought might pop into the rotation this year, but it just seems like he never pushed himself over the hump here. For the front office to include those two guys to make a deal for a pitcher that could be here for a while says to me that they were big Wandy fans and are serious about this.

    Add a leadoff bat before the deadline, and you’ve got yourself a pretty good situation heading into August 1.

  53. RELENTLESS_FORECHECK says:

    Ok, ok, I’ll talk Pirates. I know very little of WandRod beyond what I’ve heard through discussion, but it sounds like just the type of impact move the Pirates needed to make. Welcome to the big leagues, fellas, we’re glad you’re here…

    And now, hockey. It wouldn’t surprise me to see Philly make the four-year offer for Doan. Fresh off losing Weber back to Nashville and without Jaromir Jagr, the Flyers appear desperate to make a splash this summer. I don’t think Shero gets into a bidding war over Doan: he’ll take a flyer and make a reasonable offer, but that’s about as far as I see this going.

  54. NMR says:

    Not quite sure I understand this “if” talk regarding the trade.

    How does getting a bat make or break a trade for a pitcher?

    The Pirates improved their pitching staff with a player who’ll be here for two more years and they’ve done it without giving up any prospect above #8 in their system.

    -impact player, years of control, no top prospects

    That’s a move I’ll take any day.

  55. Thundercrack says:

    JMB, if Tim Williams is asking who would have given the same package for Maholm, is he taking into consideration the contracts and the fact that Houston is kicking in some money?

  56. Jandy says:

    NMR I gather the feeling is if it’s this trade OR a bat, then this is a fail. But what do I know?

  57. Marc says:

    Can someone name 3 Pirates players either received or acquired in a trade that went on to become successful major leaguers?

    I feel like these guys have all the potential but so did Tim Alderson and Andy Laroche…I just think there is something to be said about acquiring proven major league talent.

  58. LuckyNKentucky says:

    NMR,

    24/7 said in his piece on the trade that Wandy’s K’s are down but the FO expects Searage’s efforts to help that. Maybe that’s the “if”.

    I have to admit, I’m a prospect watcher. You have to have been one as a Pirate fan before this season and part of last. I’m with DK. Owens and Grossman were good prospects. But now is what we want to concentrate on and the FO is finally buying in. Thankful for it.

  59. JMB says:

    @TC

    I see this as the summation quote from Williams.

    “You deal this type of package to get Wandy Rodriguez from 2010. You don’t deal this type of package to get a player who looks like he could be on the decline. The Pirates could have received similar production from…well, Paul Maholm, and for a lot less in prospects and money.”

  60. Thundercrack says:

    I would hope that Wandy is helped by pitching in our ballpark and that we may have a better defense behind him too.

  61. David says:

    @Marc

    Jason Bay, Jeff Karstens, James McDonald, Brian Giles, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson, the list could go on.

    With that being said I like this move. Adds a nice stable left handed presence in the rotation for 2013 and 2014 when Bedard is gone. People are underestimating that and focusin solely on the impact it has on 2012. For me the 2013 and 2014 part is really the key. For a while next year’s rotation was looking really shaky but with Karstens coming on and now Rodriguez it looks very promising.

    Now go get that bat preferably someone who can actually play a corner outfield spot and bat lead off. We only have one man in the organization I would feel comfortable doing that and we kind of need him batting 3rd and playing CF. And yes this is meant to exclude Presley, Tabata, Hernandez and Marte. Although I do want Marte up here I don’t want him and a 30% K rate hitting lead off.

  62. JMB says:

    @Jandy

    I think that sums it up. I wanted to trade Grossman in a package for real game changing bat.

    As I said yesterday, Grossman and Lincoln for Pence would be great for us.

    Grossman as a KLaw top 100 prospect and Lincoln having great trade value would have been in the ballpark of what Philly paid for Pence last year with less value expected due to one less year of control of Pence.

  63. LuckyNKentucky says:

    JMB,

    A gentleman pointed out in last night’s thread that Pence had been bad in the field this season and his average is down somewhat. (.268 is still very respectful from my standpoint). Milo pointed out that his splits are better away from Philly, .293 on the road. I still like his talent level and long-term potential. If we got him, Jones could stay at first with McGehee backing he and Pedro up. Then, all we’d need is a bona-fide leadoff hitter.

  64. Jandy says:

    JMB I actually went to a Curve doubleheader Saturday, and Grossman looked pretty sharp. But then, the whole team did. They turned double plays with a precision better than the Pirates. The throws from third to first were on the money with no pulling off the bag. Curve won both games, so I was a happy camper.
    But hey, I’m still learning this baseball strategy stuff, and I take it all in…so maybe I’m learning something for sure, eh? :)

  65. Arriba Wilver says:

    Tim didn’t have the salary numbers, but estimated that IF Wandy picked up his option, that 50-50 would make the deal even. It’s closer to 60-40 Bucs, but Tim’s using their own model. He seemed most concerned about the 3 year decline in K/BB numbers.

  66. CraigWilson'sRevenge says:

    the pirates probably don’t have the finances to add a big time player such as Pence who will be here beyond this year.

    If hanrahan isn’t already destined to be gone after the Burnett and Wandy payroll additions, he surely will be if somebody like Pence is added. Other guys on the team are getting big arbitration raises as well. i doubt they have room to add long term payroll.

    I will bet my money on them getting a rental bat after picking up the Wandy contract. Unless of course a crap-ton of their salary is picked up. In that case, the quality of prospects must increase and after the Wandy deal, can they afford to give up a lot more prospect depth? we shall see.

  67. NMR says:

    @Jandy

    I think that is the logic as well, but don’t agree with it at all.

    The trade period in general being a fail if a bat isn’t received? Maybe.

    But that has nothing to do with this specific move.

    @Lucky

    I’ll admit that I’ve lost a lot of interest in prospects this season. Mostly because the Major League team is, um, winning. But I did cringe a bit at losing Grossman.

    He was a mid round pick with the kind of hitting skills that seem to translate across all levels. Jeff Luhnow seems to be hitting on all cylinders for the ‘stros, as well.

    As for Wandy’s K/9 rate, even in this decreased state it is still only less than half a K lower than Owens in AAA. I appreciate the info, though. I don’t follow Rob B.

  68. Thundercrack says:

    JMB, no offense to Tim Williams, but I’ve seen Paul Maholm’s production in a Pirate uniform and I’ve seen enough. Nice guy, OK pitcher.

    Of course I saw him in person last night……………….

  69. LuckyNKentucky says:

    CWR,

    I’d sure hate to see Hanny go, as a competitor, a person and a talent, but they are supposedly grooming Lincoln for that spot long-term. He may have the makeup for it. We could ask Jim Thome about it.

  70. Thundercrack says:

    I wonder if they should go after Wigginton from the Phillies for the bench-bat they need.

  71. JMB says:

    @Lucky

    Yeah, maybe we’re wearing rose-colored glasses with Pence, but I still see him as a game changer as well.

    If Atl. was not in contention, I would really want Bourn most of all, but I’d be happy getting Pence & Victorino (or Pierre) from Philly.

    I like Span too, but Minny seems to be in ask for the world mode. I saw something yesterday that implied the Twins wanted a huge return for Liriano.

  72. NMR says:

    Pence for a reliever and a player in AA who barely breaks into one guys Top 100?

    How is that even close to two top 50 players, which is what Philly gave up to get Pence?

  73. SeanAY says:

    Aaaaand I didn’t even notice that the Dodgers got Ramirez AND Choate in that deal.

    Good get.

  74. NMR says:

    Has Williams been even remotely close to any of the actual trades this year with his ridiculous value metrics?

    You lose all credibility in my book if you see Wandy and Paul on equal footing.

  75. SeanAY says:

    Check out this entry from Buster Olney in today’s blog:

    “For Houston, the Astros’ purge of players continues, a shift almost unprecedented in the last 80 years. The highest-paid Astro who was with Houston at the outset of this season is now Jed Lowrie, who makes $1.25 million.

    Rival evaluators believe that in each of these deals… the Astros are eating a lot of dollars and acquiring players who will help organizational depth and, at the same time, won’t make a significant impact in the big leagues. In other words, Grade C+/B- prospects.

    The Astros had the No. 1 pick in this year’s draft, they’re positioned to have the No. 1 pick in next year’s draft and may be picking at or near the front of the draft for years to come.”

    Rewind to 2009, and wouldn’t you be able to just substitute all the Astros references with Pirates, Pittsburgh, and appropriate players?

    DK: Brief excerpts and links only, guys, please.

  76. NMR says:

    Yeah, SeanAY. Somebody needs to take Miami out back and put her down.

    What an absolute mess of a franchise.

    Seriously, their ineptitude very well may be more impressive in scale than either the Nats or Pirates breakout seasons.

  77. CraigWilson'sRevenge says:

    @LuckyNKentucky

    it will stink to see hanrahan go if he does, but i just can’t see NH spending 8-ish million on a bullpen guy, especially with paying Burnett 13 next year and Wandy however much. as much of a stud closer he is. the pirates are still a small market team.

    Lincoln has the attitude and stuff to take over next year IMO. I think he needs to get a few more save opportunities down the stretch here just to groom him a little bit.

  78. LuckyNKentucky says:

    NMR,

    That’s Philly’s problem. Lincoln was a first-rounder and Grossman is only 22 with tons of upside. Anyway, it won’t happen now. They probably want Cole and Heredia anyway. Heredia’s ERA us under 2 at State College BTW. Cole and Taillon look fatigued at this point. Still others in the system for leverage.

  79. JMB says:

    http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/07/how-much-trade-value-does-brad-lincoln-have.html

    “Lincoln’s value a few million higher than a top 11-25 pitching prospect, or a top 26-50 hitting prospect.”

  80. CraigWilson'sRevenge says:

    @NMR,

    the deal aligns very close with all the involved players’ theoretical values from Tim Williams.

    Williams says that Wandy’s theoretical value is only about 2 pct smaller than the value that the pirates ended up paying, assuming Wandy takes the 2014 option.

    If he doesn’t take the option, the deal is more of an overpay.

  81. LuckyNKentucky says:

    So does Headley play first if he comes here or does Pedro move to first? Then, what do we do with Jones and McGehee? Guess we’ll know by midnight on Tuesday, but hopefully before.

  82. Marc says:

    @ David Ah my bad I meant 3 Pirates prospects received or sent in a trade.

    I wasn’t clear with my question, but I still think the point remains that potential is not talent.

    Jason Bay – Is fringey because he was in AAA with the Padres but began starting for Pittsburgh the fall he was traded
    Jeff Karstens was already a major league pitcher
    James Macdonald was a prospect so that’s 1.
    Brian GIles was a major leaguer
    Jack WIlson was obtained as a minor leaguer so there’s 2.

    I also like the move, but it is disappointing to trade Rudy Owens without seeing what he is capable of at the major league level.

  83. Thundercrack says:

    DK,
    You wrote today that Grossman & Owens were under-appreciated by national types for years.

    I thought I saw somewhere yesterday (twitter?) that you wrote that those two were not fully appreciated by this Front Office. Is that true…..or was I just seeing things?

  84. Arriba Wilver says:

    NMR– I think Tim was comparing this year’s numbers for Paul and Wandy.

  85. Arriba Wilver says:

    Marc—JMac was already a major leaguer also.

  86. The Gunner says:

    Wandy will do well with the Bucs kudos to NH on this one. Now go get Victorino or Pierre with former Pirate great Ty Wigginton as a throw in at a reasonable price. Unless NH has something better up his sleeve.

    Enough of Presley, Sutton, Gorkys, Tabata (in fact, send him to Philthadelphia – he has lotsa upside even though the ol’ Gunner hates him).

  87. NMR says:

    Thanks for that, CWR.

    @Arriba

    I’m sure thats what Tim was talking about. Too myopic, in my opinion.

  88. NMR says:

    @JMB

    “Lincoln’s value a few million higher than a top 11-25 pitching prospect, or a top 26-50 hitting prospect.”

    WAR. What is it good for?

  89. LuckyNKentucky says:

    NMR,

    Couldn’t agree with you more. That stuff makes my head spin. I’ve been a baseball fan for nigh on 6 decades and I can’t remember any team having played a game on paper. Looking forward to seeing him twirl. On the field.

  90. LuckyNKentucky says:

    NMR,

    Absolutely nothing.

  91. SeanAY says:

    Cutch on Dan Patrick right now.

  92. Jandy says:

    Good God, ya’ll! ;)

  93. SeanAY says:

    DK–

    Couldn’t link it; it’s behind the ESPN pay wall.

    I’ll keep the excerpts much shorter in the future.

  94. LuckyNKentucky says:

    Too many people know that song. They’re dating themselves.

  95. Jandy says:

    lucky…lol..hush ;X

  96. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    The bat will come. This deal will have nothing to do with adding a bat.

    I’m ok with the trade.

    This is a trade that proves that the FO thinks they are in a playoff run and are building their “championship caliber” roster.

    Wandy’s K rate has dropped, but his groundball % has improved……..works for me, a dude that strikes out guys and throws groundballs.

    No idea what the 3 traded to Houston will do, at this point, I don’t even care. I hope they do well, but we are past the point of wondering about prospects not named Marte, Cole, Taillon, and Heredia.

  97. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    Why are we singing WAR??? Please stop!!!

  98. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    I do know the song, unlike a few on here, I didnt hear it when it was first released.

  99. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    If playoffs were around today……..I’d recommend an OVER/UNDER on whether Dempster pitches tonight…..

  100. LuckyNKentucky says:

    Ryan,

    It’s off Pirate Prospects analysis of the trade. NMR started it. He probably didn’t hear it either when it was released, nor Jandy, just us older, more mature folks.

  101. Jandy says:

    Hey now, Lucky, I resemble that remark :p

  102. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    @Lucky..

    Yea, I knew he started it, but did you guys REALLY have to continue??

    just kiddin’

  103. LuckyNKentucky says:

    Jandy,

    I was being sarcastic with the mature thing. I love the 3 Stooges, too.

    Ryan,

    Consider it stopped on my part. I know military people are not fond of war, nor am I.

  104. tpbco says:

    Ah, don’t fall too much in love with Wandy. I live in Houston, he has been so bad since June 1, that there was mucho talk about sitting him as to not completely kill his trade value.

    Maybe he’ll turn it around…maybe.

  105. LuckyNKentucky says:

    What wonderful news, tpbco. Must have gotten by Neal.

  106. cmat0829 says:

    Wow, can’t believe any of the analysis that doesn’t like this trade. Wandy pitches a lot of his games in a bandbox with a very short left field porch. He now will pitch many of his games in a stadium with a HUGE left field.

    I admit I don’t study the stats like some beatniks do, but key to this trade is that Wandy is durable, left handed, and 33 years old. The Astros will be paying a lot of his salary the next 2 seasons and if the player option kicks in, some of the salary in the last season too.

    Is not Wandy an upgrade over Correia right now? And is he not definitely the #3 starter for the Bucs in 2013 as well? And for that we give up Cain (nothing special), Grossman (has a chance), and Owens (will get a chance to start in the bigs).

    And I just have to laugh at the thought that trading for Paul Maholm would have been a better move than picking up Wandy. Can we please take away whatever credentials that fool has please?

  107. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    @Lucky

    Just messin’ with ya…….but does anybody know the rest of the lyrics? LOL

  108. cmat0829 says:

    Really, we need to put the sharp knives away. The asylum has been bitching and moaning at NH to “make a move” and he does… a significant one. And now folks are ready, salivating to bitch and moan if Wandy has a few bad starts.

    Risk/reward. That is the name of the game. Sure, NH could’ve taken Tim Williams’ advice and picked up Paul (I’ll pitch a few games and then get absolutely torched and deploy the Jim Tracy postgame quotes “one bad pitch… I pitched well other than the 10 HRs I gave up”…) Maholm… that’s a low risk but also low reward move…the type of move people on here have been pleading the FO not to make.

    So, you get what you asked for…this is higher risk (not the highest as we didn’t trade any key top prospect)/ higher reward…. fasten your seatbelts.

    I also think trading Grossman means Marte stays put (on the Pirates, not necessarily at Indy for too long) and won’t be traded ….

  109. Milo Hamilton says:

    Theoretical Value ? THEORETICAL VALUE ??

    I’m only going to pay $1.00 for that steak because that’s all it’ll be worth next week after I’ve eaten it. My head’s going to explode.

  110. tmp444 says:

    OK, the FO DID SOMETHING. Now they need to DO MORE, and I point to nothing more than 1 run over 2 games against one of the worst teams in the NL as proof.

    Safe travels, DK.

  111. Jandy says:

    Lucky, I know, you love jerking my chain…that’s why I jerk yours :p

  112. LuckyNKentucky says:

    ======================================================
    Jandy,

    Must be nice being the most popular lady on DK’s blog. You get chain jerking and love notes every day. Kinda like Bob Hasis, only from a female standpoint.

  113. Jandy says:

    LOL you guys put up with me, Lucky,and you all know it! ;)

  114. NMR says:

    Buncha good stuff in the column today, Dejan.

    Most noteably, the FO “fear” involved with Marte. I personally believe that the fear may very well be justified and don’t exactly count a pennant race as the best time to find out if I’m right or wrong, but it looks like it’s sink or swim time.

    You deserve a lot of credit for your fairness in evaluating the PSU assistant coaches role based on the Freeh Report. I’d hope you get plenty of tweets saying as much from the same PSU fans sending you the personal attacks, but we both know that won’t be happening. I’m sure you’ll still be able to sleep at night.

    In my mind, O’Brien took the job with the full understanding of what could happen. He still gets paid handily and if anything, these sanctions give him a free pass for on-field performance. He has more than four years to get to a bowl game. Honor the contract.

    I do hope that players like Silas Redd will take whatever opportunities may present themselves in terms of transfering. This isn’t the kind of sword that they should feel pressured into falling on. I’ll continue to support the players that do stay as part of the PSU family, but by no means would I fault them for leaving.

    DK: To answer your semi-question, NMR, I heard from one Penn State fan — via Twitter — in addition to yourself about the Tom Bradley item. The sleeping, however, might still be an issue, as I can’t sleep on planes AT ALL.

  115. cmat0829 says:

    havent heard anything mentioned, but me thinks that while Correia can be a decent middle reliever and rotation insurance, I think he can be pretty easily traded to free up a spot…. not sure where I lean on this, but I think I lean toward going ahead and trading him.

  116. NMR says:

    Brushing up on sabremetric equation definitions would do the trick for me…

  117. Brad, Indiana PA says:

    DK, sports labor question: how come every time a CBA is getting set to expire (seemingly in every major sport) both sides are always scrambling at the last minute to agree on a new one? I know they can’t start hammering one out five years ahead, but if an agreement is set to expire in say 2 years, why not get cracking on it early? Granted there are loads of negotiating factors dependent on at-the-moment conditions, but can’t some headway be made early so that we fans aren’t sitting here holding our breath waiting to see if our favorite sports are even going to have a season (cough @ NHL)? Maybe start negotiating a year in advance so we aren’t sitting here basically 2 months before an NHL season and we get headlines about both sides meeting for the first time? It’s really quite rude to us fans who pay all these athletes and owners’ paychecks and I think we deserve better from all the major pro sports.

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