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Final: Pirates 6, Astros 5

By Dejan Kovacevic | Trib Total Media

Looking ahead to first pitch …

Game: Pirates (56-42) vs. Houston Astros (34-66)

Time: 8:05 p.m.

Site: Minute Maid Park, Houston

TV, radio: Root Sports, 93.7 The Fan

Here is the live box score.

And here is the Pirates’ lineup vs. Houston RHP Jordan Lyles

  1. Starling Marte, LF
  2. Alex Presley, RF
  3. Andrew McCutchen, CF
  4. Garrett Jones, 1B
  5. Neil Walker, 2B
  6. Pedro Alvarez, 3B
  7. Rod Barajas, C
  8. Clint Barmes, SS
  9. Jeff Karstens, RHP


  1. OZ says:

    What a nice spark Marte provided last night….

  2. JMB says:

    As others were saying on the other thread, I’d love ASoriano in RF — if the Cubs pay for most of his salary, and we didnt have to give up any major prospects.

  3. Naje says:

    Gotcha, Groat (and Ryan) on the McG… like a little chuckle every time your type it. McG directed Charlie’s Angels II… hmmm…. not chuckling at that.

  4. Demi was at her hottest!!!!!!

  5. pants-n-at says:

    I guess CH heard those who suggested giving McG a night (or 2) off. Go Bucs!

  6. Well, we had the right starting 9 and we had the right fielding positions . . . .

    . . . . . just would rather see Starling Marte hitting #2 tonight, in front of McCutch and behind OB% marvel Elvis.

    It looks as if Hurdle is not only going to plunk The Birdman down in left for all times, but also write his name in ink at leadoff.

  7. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:


    McG also directed We Are Marshall. 1st time I heard of him.

  8. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    Actually, batting AP 2nd might help him out more than what Marte might need.

  9. JuniataKid says:

    The only thing that scares me about that outfield is the thought of two super-fast guys both going for a gapper at the same time. If they collide, it could be like the super collider. We could see a Higgs boson.

  10. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:


    I agree, but they should know who’s in charge out there. Cutch takes all gappers if he’s able to.

  11. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    I like this lineup, even with AP in there. Moving NW down to 5 will give him a little more opportunity to drive in some runs.

  12. radio wave says:

    I understand that marte is very fast, and has a great arm.
    if that’s the case, then why put him in that small leftfield at MMP?
    Why not in more spacious RF?

  13. Stickyweb says:

    You know what was even better than Marte’s HR last night? His pitch discipline (ok maybe not better but close to as good) 2nd and 3rd ABs he fell behind 0-2 and both times took a couple borderline pitches with some break to them instaed of flailing away. Not at all what I would have expected after the past months scouting reports

  14. Stickyweb says:


    Agreed on the lineup. Maybe AP benefits from more fastballs batting in front of Cutch. And as everybody (except maybe his mom) has said, McG needs 3 or 4 games off to “figure things out”. Don’t know if we’re facing RHP the next few games or not, but I wouldn’t mind seeing this lineup a few days in a row.

    How about that speed in the top 3 spots? If they can hit to some open space, it’ll be fun watching them fly.

  15. Stickyweb says:

    And hopefully there’s no language barrier when Cutch and Marte are chasing down a gap shot!!

  16. pants-n-at says:

    Enjoyed last night’s Marte party. I wonder what he’ll follow it up with tonight. A couple SBs?

  17. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:


    One game at a time. He’s going to have highs and lows and ugly games too.

    Didn’t he get thrown out last night?

  18. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    Yo le tengo! Let’s open the window!

    Tonight’s THREE PLAY FRIDAY OVER / UNDER (always for fun of course)

    Please specify which line you are (fake) wagering on.

    Line #1
    Total Stolen Bases by Pirates Runners in Tonight’s Game
    Line is 0.5

    Line #2
    Total Combined Doubles, Triples and Home-runs by Andrew McCutchen in the 3 Remaining Games in Houston This Weekend
    Line is 3.5

    Line #3
    Total Combined Innings Pitched by Pirates Starting Pitchers in the 3 Remaining Games in Houston This Weekend
    Line is 19.75


    63 Current Fair Weather Participants!!
    If you haven’t played yet, what are you waiting for??!!??
    Anyone can play!! Everyone should TRY!!
    What’ll ya have!! What’ll ya have!!

    Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) ** 1500
    pattonbb ** 1300
    Mlrgenuine ** 1250
    JRay3 ** 1175
    radio wave ** 1108
    Nate83 ** 1040
    Chico ** 780
    dcpinpgh ** 750
    Steve J Smith ** 750
    manny_sanguine ** 650
    DemonDachshund ** 610
    stuart66 ** 555
    Mike C. ** 550
    Naje ** 550
    crkkid ** 525
    Slack Boss ** 510
    cosmo ** 500
    JohninOshkosh ** 450
    JMB ** 450
    Bizrow ** 445
    Evan ** 428
    jeffsbar ** 400
    JD ** 375
    MarkV ** 375
    JaxBuc ** 350
    dcpfjr ** 350
    cmat0829 ** 350
    Curt ** 300
    likeabugonarug ** 207
    Absolute59 ** 200
    Bucco_Jax ** 199
    Officer Mancuso ** 180
    RobertoForever ** 155
    lawnbeaver ** 150
    Milo Hamilton ** 125
    milo66 ** 100
    lckythump ** 100
    Jay G -Jacksonville FL via New Castle ** 100
    Sir Lochsby ** 50
    Hal Smith ** 50
    Arriba Wilver ** 30
    JUCOfan ** 25
    Karen22 ** EVEN
    swissvaletoarizonapat ** EVEN
    NMR ** EVEN
    Dan1283 ** EVEN
    Drew 71 ** EVEN
    buggee ** EVEN
    TK ** EVEN
    Stickyweb ** EVEN
    tmp444 ** -45
    Kevin ** -50
    Petro Steel ** -100
    Joe Bucco ** -100
    K. PenFan ** -100
    OZ ** -150
    Pants-n-at ** -250
    GlassHalfFull ** -305
    bman ** -405
    Kevin S ** -500
    Boise Bucco ** -500
    bob hasis ** -550
    TDB1977 ** -1040

    First Place at the end of the season will win:

    Second Place at the end of the season will win:

    Third Place at the end of the season will win:
    (1) 2012 Topps Roberto Clemente Card

  19. Jay G -Jacksonville FL via New Castle says:

    Really looking forward to seeing tonight’s game…….Go Karstens!!!

  20. JMB says:


    Line #1 — 100 on the OVER

    Line #2 — 100 on the OVER

    Line #3 — 100 on the OVER

    Thank you

  21. Naje says:


    Line No. 2 – 100 OVER
    Line No. 3 – 100 OVER

    Thanks much!

  22. @Playoffs, let me go with:

    50 on the OVER for Line #1

    100 on the OVER for Line #2

    50 on the OVER for Line #3

    Thanks! LotZ Go BucZ!

  23. Stickyweb says:

    Should there really be criticism for Marte getting thrown out? Cutch was already picked off and was going to be the 3rd out. Way not force the IF to turn in a new direction and throw home since if he scores before Cutch is tagged the run counts?

  24. Jay G -Jacksonville FL via New Castle says:

    @Playoffs………100 on each please
    1. over…..lots of speed at the top
    2. under….I can see one per game
    3. over….I can see someone going 8 but not 6 or under…..

  25. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:


    Give me 100 on all 3 lines. Still have another line to go on the weekend too, if memory serves.

  26. pattonbb says:

    Playoffs –

    Line 1 – 100 OVER
    Line 2 – 100 UNDER
    Line 3 – 100 OVER

  27. radio wave says:

    at playoffs:
    Line #1 100 over
    Line #2 50 under
    Line 3 25 under

  28. Stickyweb says:


    Need to build on my stellar 1 fake wager (fager?) winning streak:

    Line 1 over for 100

    Line 2 under for 100 (though would love to lose this one)

    Line 3 over for 100

  29. Stickyweb says:


    It would probably help if you said over or under for your 3 picks. I know the bookies don’t let me get away with that!

  30. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:


    I was asking the question because I didn’t see the game.

    Cutch is terrible at base stealing….I don’t get it

  31. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:


  32. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    Can’t multi-task today.

  33. Bizrow says:

    Playoffs, here I go again, 100 bob on OVAH for all three lines

    Ok, lurkers, and we know you are out there. If you don’t see your current residence on the list of Lunatic places, please sign in


    Dejan’s Lunatic Nation – at the Trib,
    Arizona – Tucson, Chandler, Phoenix, Sunnyslope
    Arkansas – Rogers
    Austrailia – Mackay
    California – Bakersfield, San Francisco, UNION CITY, Los Angeles, Newport Beach, Hollywood, Huntington Beach, Yuba City, Solana Beach
    Canada – Toronto, Winnipeg
    Colorado – Ft Collins, Estes Park, Denver, Boulder
    Connecticut – Cos Cob, Bridgeport, Wallingford
    Costa Rica
    Czech Republic
    Delaware – Newark
    Denmark – Greenland – Thule*
    District of Columbia
    Florida – Palm Harbor, Orlando, Valrico, Gainesville, Daytona Beach, Oviedo, Tampa, Jacksonville, Sarasota, Palm Beach Gardens, Cape Coral, Coco Beach (Major Nelson and Mary Ann), Niceville (Red Neck Rivera)
    Georgia – Marietta, Atlanta, Sandy Springs
    Germany – Leverkusen/Cologne
    Hawaii – Honolulu
    Idaho – Mountain Home, Coer d’Aline
    Indiana – Indianapolis, Burns Harbor, South Bend
    Iowa – Bettendorf, Humboldt
    Illinois – La Salle, Peru, Payson, Chicago, Palatine (3 inmates there), Lincoln Park, Grayslake, Lincoln Park, Algonquin
    Japan – Tokyo
    Kentucky – Louisville, Bowling Green, Lexington
    Louisiana – Slidell
    Maine – Bangor
    Maryland – Arnold, Odenton, Severn, Baltimore, Waldorf
    Massachusetts – Boston
    Michigan – Kalamazoo, Eaton Rapids, Lansing
    Mississippi – Biloxi
    Mountain Home AFB*
    Nebraska – Omaha
    New Hampshire – Barrington
    New Jersey – Chesterfield, Princeton, Roxbury, Lebanon, Lincoln Park, Berkeley Heights, Somerville, Hammock, Barrington
    New York – New York, Smithtown, Manhattan
    North Carolina – Asheville, Hickory, Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Wilmington, Chapel Hill
    North Dakota
    Ohio – Cincinnati, Columbiana, Westerville, Green, Hilliard, Toledo, Louisville, Columbus, Perrysburg, Pickerington, Youngstown, Cleveland, Olmsted Township, Liberty Township, Warren, Oregon, Wintersville
    Pennsylvania – Downtown, Hopewell, Indiana, North Wales, Franklin Park, Forest Hills, Lansdale, Philadelphia, Du Bois, Reading, Crafton, Arnold, Wexford, Mt Lebanon, Canonsburg, Lancaster, Huntington, York, Boiling Springs, Philly suburbs, Morningside, Harrisburg, Lawrenceville, Bradfordwoods, Norristown, Hanover, Clearfield, Sewickley, DuBois, Plum Boro, Slippery Rock, Wilks-Barre, Sharpsville, Bessemer, Greensburg, Washington, Imperial, South Side, Duncansville, Newville, Sheppton, Grove City, Butler, Allentown, Ross Township, Blairsville, Flood City (Johnstown), Overbrook, Danny’s Hoagies, Baldwin, Economy, Sharpsville, Erie, North Huntington, Bellfonte, West Mifflin, Kennywood, Pleasant Hills, Beechview (Mad Turk, No 200), Macgunie, Mechanicsburg, Uptown, Cambria County, Mon Valley, Salisbury
    The Phillipines
    Rhode Island
    South Carolina – Duncan, Longs, Columbia
    South Korea – Seoul, Mike
    Tennessee – Smithville, Nashville
    Texas – Tyler, San Antonio, Belton
    Utah – Salt Lake City
    Vermont – North Bennington
    Virginia – JAL, Hampton, Rescue, Richmond, Front Royal, Woodbridge, Suffolk, Warrenton, Springfield, Virginia Beach, Fairfax, Arlington, Yorktown, Henrico
    Washington – Seattle, Nine Mile Falls, Spokane, Sammamish
    West Virginia – Martinsburg, Morgantown
    Wisconsin – Madison, Oshkosh, Hortonville

    220 locations represented in the blog,
    11 countries
    39 states, plus the District of Columbia
    Two planets, at least confirmed
    Asterisks denote confirmed hero’s, military, police officers or firemen/ladies
    7/27/2012 4:58 PM

  34. RobertoForever says:


    No offense meant.

    My Dad’s Army buddy was some big fire chief in Myrtle Beach. Loved visiting Myrtle Beach. Loved the amusement park on the south side. And the cruisin traffic on the beach in the evening was unbelievable. Other than that, little to form an opinion.

  35. Stickyweb says:


    My bad, I thought you were being a little sarcastic (like I usually am) but I meant to ask about the play in here anyway. I figure it’s about 90% on Cutch and 10% on Marte but I’m certainly no base stealing expert.

    I don’t understand Cutch’s base stealing (or lack thereof) either. The last few tries the announcer says “there goes Cutch”, the catcher doesn’t seem to make a real quick throw yet it always beats him easily (though tags have been missed and he’s still called out). I guess he’s not getting great jumps, and when he does, he’s gettign picked off

  36. Kevin says:

    Mr. Playoffs, sir…

    Line 1: 100 on the over

    Line 3: 50 on the over

    Staying away from Line 2

    Trying to get to the PLUS side of this deal – for the first time.

    Thanks, as always

  37. RobertoForever says:


    Appreciate the visual feedback on Jones. I only get to see on Game day so can’t tell that an out was solidly hit or he was robbed of a hit by a great play. And his defence has come along way from his time in Minny as a blocked first baseman learning RF for the first time.

  38. MarkV says:


    I’ll take over for 50 on each line.
    Thanks as always. Beat ‘em Bucs!

  39. RobertoForever says:


    Love the God particle humor. Anytime you can connect particle physics to baseball, I love it. Keep it coming, lol.

  40. bobhasis says:

    When Marte batted the second time, had it not been for the fact AJ just made an out, and I’m sure was instructed to take a pitch or two to give AJ a chance to rest, I believe he could have been two for two on two pitches, because that first pitch (in his second AB) was absolutely perfect for him to drive to El Paso

  41. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:


    I usually am sarcastic at times as well, but not on that one.

  42. JuniataKid says:


    I’m fascinated by the super collider. Though I think it would be way more awesome to use Matchbox cars instead of protons.

  43. DemonDachshund says:

    @Playoffs –

    Line 1, 100 on OVER
    Line 2, 100 on UNDER
    Line 3, 100 on UNDER

  44. Stickyweb says:


    good point, i didnt think about the iron clad “take a pitch because your pitcher just jogged 50 feet” rule

  45. Bizrow says:

    Anyone remember Turner Ward and his super collider play at TRS, where he basically ran through the right field wall?

    No catch though, but I think he did get the ball in before it was an inside the park dinger

  46. bobhasis says:


    Line 1 OVER for 100
    Line 2 OVER for 25
    Line 3 UNDER for 25

    Thank you

  47. JuniataKid says:


    Remember it well, couldn’t remember the name! As I recall, he could barely throw the ball 30 feet when he came back in. That was nuts.

  48. pants-n-at says:

    #1 100 on the over
    #2 100 on the under
    #3 100 on the over

  49. jeffsbar says:


    Line 1 – 100 OVER
    Line 2 – 100 UNDER
    Line 3 – 100 OVER

  50. cmat0829 says:

    WOW, interesting O/U lines tonight Playoffs…for Triple Play Friday….. I’m usually an “over”zealot…. but me thinks thusly:

    1) OVER. I think CH will run either Marte or Presley.
    2) OVER… it’s been a while since a Cutch HR (was it the blast in Denver?), so I see him picking up 2 HRs and 2 doubles… this one is a tough one though.
    3) UNDER… That’s a lot to ask of the starters…. I could see 2 6 inning outings.

    100 FUs per, please.

  51. scapper says:

    Hey Playoffs, I got a suggested line for future (fake) wagering: How many days until the city breaks off into Crosby-or-Malkin type camps for Cutch and Marte?

    Oh, that the baseball gods would grant us this quandary! We’ve suffered long enough.

  52. NMR says:

    Can I get in on this nerd talk?

  53. Naje says:

    Saw Yo La Tengo here in Louisville in the early/mid ’90’s… great show… I think it was Elect-ro-Pura tour… wild time…

  54. LuckyNKentucky says:

    Great lines, Playoffs. If I was a fake-betting man, I’d stay away from all 3.

  55. bobhasis says:

    Stickyweb, Ryan, et al

    No reason to be confused about Cutch’s lack of success at stealing. I have mentioned this before, but Lou Brock and Maury Wills (probably Ricky Henderson too) great base-stealers have said the FIRST move you make is left leg over – toward second base – a full stride which because of the momentum created in that direction will get your body turned, then run like hell.
    No need to pivot before you take that first step as Cutch does, or you will have already lost a step.

    Cutch always wastes one little movement in place before taking off – which is the difference in safe or out.

    However it is not just that simple; your toes must be pointed away from each other (slightly) and your weight evenly distributed, just in case you need to get back to first, and you MUST be on the balls of your feet.

    Lord knows he has the speed, but not the technique. Cutch is never out at second, he is out when he takes off.

    As it is now, when the pitcher and catcher are spot on, Cutch doesn’t have a chance.

    Ryan you should be able to bring up a video on The Art of Base Stealing, as you have done on other discussions in the past.

    This is as I have heard, certainly not my own original thoughts. I was a base stealer like Lloyd McLendon.

  56. RobertoForever says:


    Have a number of physics professor friends who keep me updated on Facebook on the latest.

    Matchbox cars would be cool, and how about Lego constructs being slammed together, lol.

  57. manny _sanguine says:


    Line 1 – 50 OVER
    Line 2 – 50 UNDER
    Line 3 – 100 OVER


  58. bman says:


    Line 1: 40 on the OVER
    Line 2: 100 on the UNDER
    Line 3: 100 on the UNDER

  59. cmat0829 says:

    Saw on that Tom Singer speculates that teams would be willing to trade two “major league bats” for Joel Hanrahan.

    So, asylum-ites, what say you on that? Do you:
    1) hold on to the Hammer and ride him to the playoffs and then let him go to Free Agency after the season
    2) hold on to him and re-sign him for multiple seasons at a hefty raise
    3) deal him and take your chances with Grilli as closer and Brad Lincoln for the 8th inning.

    Me? I think I’d have to hold onto him but it is tempting.

  60. McG says:


    Line 1- 100 on under
    Line 2 – 100 on over
    Line 3 – 100 on over

  61. LuckyNKentucky says:


    Depends on which 2 ML bats. Some GM’s definitions may vary on that one. I’m with you. My vote is to keep him.

  62. Playoffs by 2012 says:


    As someone who vehemently detests the Penguins, and abhors both Crosby and Malkin, it would probably be best for The Window to pass on that line.

  63. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    By the way, to all who have put their (fake) wagers in tonight……YOU GOT IT AND GOOD LUCK!!

  64. pattonbb says:

    @ Bob – I’ve seen you mention this “first move to second” several times. I absolutely agree with you. Several years ago I saw Carl Crawford (not comparing him to the all-time great base-stealers, but he was pretty good in his prime) say, in effect, the same thing. Can’t find the direct quote, but he basically said when you decide to go, if your first move isn’t towards second, then you already have given the catcher and pitcher time to react. First move always has to be towards second.

    Great observation on your part.

  65. RobertoForever says:


    Lot of over action today. All three of these lines look like trap lines.

    Line 1 – the Bucs have lots of speed, but like two stolen bases this month. Plus the new catcher for the Stros has thrown out 4 of 5. Seems like he has a gun. Let me have 50 UNDER

    Line 2 – Cutch has not been hitting xbh’s lately. I think he could have a few. And there have been HR’s feeding the team, but not lately from Cutch. 4 seems a little over. So I will take 75 UNDER.

    Line 3 – All three guys could pitch quality starts and still miss the line by 2ip. Wandy and J-Mac have both been scuffling over the last three outings. The Stros have not been losing by much, and they could break out against one of the starter. So I will go 100 on the UNDER.

    Hoping for 3 complete games, a 4 HR stretch by Cutch and Sb’s all around tonight, but I have to protect my stash of fake units, lol.

    That and I think I am on a losing streak, so maybe my bets will result in big domination by the Bucs, lol.

    Thanks as always.

  66. JMB says:

    @Cmat & lucky

    I trade him if 2 ML bats are really possible. The dudes over on BD don’t seem to believe that.

    The question is always the return though, and do we think NH plans on paying Hanny $7MM next season?

  67. Playoffs by 2012 says:


    It’s is a non-issue. Hanrahan is under team control next year. It is his final arb-elligible year. He will get in the $7.5 – $9 million range for 1 season, and then be a free agent. Most likely he gets dealt sometime between December 2012 and July 2013.

  68. Boise Bucco says:

    I’m not sure why Tom Singer would even be writing about a playoff contender trading their closer. Why doesn’t he just write about how much they could get for trading Cutch while he’s at it.

  69. bobhasis says:


    It’s funny that you and I know what the greatest knew, but the Pirates aren’t aware. Crawford certainly was successful.

    How many times is a runner out by more than one step; it’s usually bang-bang, so the runner has to find the advantage somewhere.


  70. RobertoForever says:


    If the two major league bats are D-Span and Justin Morneau, I say go for it. Lincoln can step in. Hate to see the Hammer go, but if they are 2 bats like that, I would do it.

  71. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    There is no way Hanrahan gets traded while the Pirates are in playoff contention. He will get dealt sometime between December 2012 and July 2013. This is a non-story.

  72. JaxBuc says:


    100 Olympic pins on the OVER for Line 1.

  73. Mlrgenuine says:


    On a week long losing streak here….

    Line #1 – 100 on the OVER (Marte?)
    Line #2 – 100 on the OVER
    Line #3 – 100 on the UNDER

    Let’s Go Bucs!

  74. Evan says:

    Line 1 – 100 on OVER
    Line 2 – 45 on UNDER
    Line 3 70 on OVER

  75. Boise Bucco says:


    Morneau is terrible this year. .253/11 HR’s, $14M/yr for the next 2 years. He’s not getting any better without BALCO’s help.

    Span has a decent average, .285, but Gorkys Hernandez power.

    We’d be just as set with the GI Jones/McGehee combo.

    Call me crazy, but if I’m NH in the middle of a playoff hunt, I’m not trading Hanny for anyone not named Hamilton. Don’t even bother calling. (Seriously, it’s not like Texas is gonna sign him anyway…)

  76. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    I repeat……..There is no way Hanrahan gets traded while the Pirates are in playoff contention. He will get dealt sometime between December 2012 and July 2013. This is a non-story.

  77. Boise Bucco says:

    MLBTR really pulls the Hanny trade rumor out of context too, with that remark. I hate pulling a whole paragraph from an article, but just so it’s in full context:

    “The possibility of Joel Hanrahan and his 30 saves going in a blockbuster has been on the back burner all summer. Many elite teams that lack a proven closer would be willing to swap two Major League bats for him. The Pirates may feel confident giving the closing role to Brad Lincoln, Jason Grilli or a combination of the two of them.”

    What that says to me is, yeah a lot of teams would trade for Hanny. NO DUH. Has it been on the back burner all summer? Well, maybe not since the All-Star Break, but yeah, we all kinda thought it would happen.

  78. Curt says:

    Line #1: 100 on the OVER

    Line #2: 100 on the UNDER

    Line #3: 100 on the OVER

  79. JMB says:

    The problem with this sort of rumor is that there are too many variables.

    Is Lincoln going to be traded, or is he next year’s closer?

    How many contenders want/need a closer for the rest of this season and want to pay $7-9m for Hanny next season?

    The White Sox?

    Would the Angels give us Morales and Bourjos for Hanny? Frieri has had a pretty nice season.

  80. Chico says:


    Line #1
    100 on the over

    Line #2
    50 on the over.

    Line #3
    75 on the under.


  81. Boise Bucco says:

    haha the problem with this rumor is that it’s a rumor to begin with. And a dirty, nasty rumor at that…

    I wouldn’t expect to get onto MLBTR and see, “Many teams would be willing to trade two Major League bats to acquire AROLDIS CHAPMAN….Many teams would be willing to trade two Major League bats to acquire AROLDIS CHAPMAN…..”

    I get that it’s the Pirates, and that everybody’s just used to them being in perma-sell mode, but still. Playoffs, people! I bet MLBTR doesn’t even know who’s closing games right now for the Cardinals (Jason Motte? IDK) but you know for a fact that THEIR closer isn’t on the trading block.

    It’s BS.

  82. Boise Bucco says:

    In fairness though, the article it links to, Singer’s article over on, brings up a good point.

    In calling up Marte, the Bucs are reducing other teams’ leverage. If Marte produces, then the Bucs don’t “need” a bat as much anymore. The sellers need buyers just as much as the Bucs need a bat.

    NH might have had us all hoodwinked in waiting for this 4-gamer in Houston, where Marte would have every chance to put as many dingers into the short Crawford boxes as he can, right before the trade deadline.

    Trading for Wandy when it looks like the Bucs don’t need pitching, calling up Marte right before this series, letting him hit a few dingers, and then trading for a bat when it looks like the Bucs don’t need one anymore? Kinda evil genius-y if you think about it…

  83. SlackBoss says:

    @playoffs – line 1 – 100 on the over Marte will get it done

    Line 2 – 75 on the under – hard to bet that cutch doesn’t go on a rampage

    Line 3 – I will take a pass – simply too much power in Mr Hurdles hands on this one. I suspect he checks the window and then decides on when to pull a pitcher.

    Can the Buccos start another streak? YES!

  84. Drew71 says:

    What was I (not) thinking??

    Roger Bannister. One thread late.

    The most important athlete who most have not heard of.

    Before he became the first to break the four minute mile, many experts – physicians, physicists, coaches, even other runners – often were quoted or wrote that the human body was incapable of breaking that barrier.

    Turns out it was a mental barrier. When they thought they couldn’t, they couldn’t.

    And almost immediately after Bannister proved the possibility, other runners did the same. Almost immediately.

    As if his belief, his proof, gave them wings.

    Not mind over matter. Rather one mind over many.

    A leader isn’t always just better.

    Sometimes he’s a leader just because he leads.

    Rumor has it that Roger will light the the flame tonight. Why not? He’s done it before. So to speak.

  85. OZ says:

    Line 1 over for 100…thx

  86. JMB says:

    BREAKING NEWS: #Brewers receiving shortstop Jean Segura and two Class AA pitchers from #Angels for Zack Greinke.

  87. Drew71 says:

    Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay were not far behind. Except by then it was generally believed that SOMEbody would eventually summit Everest and return.

    Another reason they are just on the short list…Some reasonable evidence (but not proof) that Mallory made it up first. Mallory and his partner were later found dead on the mountain. So even if they summited first, it can accurately be stated that Norgay and Hillary were the first to reach the roof of the world…

    …and return.

  88. pipecock says:

    IMO Hanrahan is the most expendable player in the Pirates system that can actually bring a decent return back. I believe Lincoln or Grilli could hold down the 9th, and with the other one taking the 8th and Hughes taking the 7th I feel we don’t lose too much. They shouldn’t spend so much on a closer next year anyway, so if the trade is right right now I say take it. Don’t wait till the offseason. Correia takes over long relief from Lincoln as well as spot start detail if necessary, and I trust NH to get an additional reliever trough a trade without giving up anything of consequence. I like Hanrahan, but I feel like he is getting sketchier as the real pressure ramps up and that is not a good look.

  89. SlackBoss says:

    I tend to agree with pipecock. Hanging on to Hanrahan when you have other options does not make sense. He threw a couple of wonderful 57 foot for sliders that almost beheaded Barajes last night. He is so ready for a regression that it’s scary. A couple of bats we can lock up for a few years? I say go for it.

  90. bobhasis says:

    Cornelius Warmerdam (Varmerdam) from Sweden or Norway was the first to pole vault 15 feet WITH A BAMBOO POLE.

  91. scapper says:

    Drew 71…great stuff on Bannister. Really well said.

    Playoffs…as a former yinzer who has lived in the DC area for 25 years, I certainly understand that detestation of the Pens, haha.

    Finally, to anyone…while you’re trying to get moving tomorrow morning, check out the end of the Olympic road race. You might see the greatest pure sprint finisher in the history of racing take gold, the great Mark Cavendish.

    Doubt you’ll be covering that DK, but if so…major envy on this end.

  92. Playoffs by 2012 says:


    Don’t get me wrong, I detest the Caps way more than the Penguins.

  93. Kevin says:

    Marte grounds out…time to send him back down??

    Kidding of course

  94. JRay3 says:

    @ Playoffs -traveling all day trying to sneak in for lines.

    Line 2 – 50 on the UNDER

    line 3- 100 on the OVER

    Thanks som ouch and Go Bucs!

  95. My prediction, knowing only that Karstens starts: Pirates win. My prediction, knowing that Lyles of the 5.42 ERA is matched up against him is, Pirates win. Oh, one more thing. Pedro either delights or disappoints.

  96. twentytwo22 says:

    Wednesday – Pull the plug on Presley in LF and batting leadoff
    Thursday – Marte in LF batting first
    Friday – Presley playing RF batting second

    I don’t follow.

  97. JRay3 says:

    Twentytwo22- Casey Mcgehee 1 for his last 14, 2 for his last 24, RHP going Presley LH bat seems to make good sense.

  98. RobertoForever says:


    I didn’t realize Gorkys had 22 major league HR’s, a career OBP of. 360 and career OPS of. .750

  99. JMB says:


    Almost had a smash up there!

  100. twentytwo22 says:

    The Pirates are sleepwalking through this stretch of 10 games with the Cubs and Astros. Very disappointing.

  101. Pig Legs Robinson says:

    Karstens isnt fooling anyone tonight. He just doesn’t have it. I hope Hurdle doesn’t let this thing get too out of hand before bringing in a reliever.

  102. twentytwo22 says:

    A comeback win can get the offense out of this malaise. Potentially 2-3 against the Cubs and Astros just isn’t good enough. There’s no excuse for it.

  103. scapper says:

    Playoffs…Hey, anyone who had the guts and foresight to select a name like “Playoffs by 2012″ and then have it not be a joke by late July, well…I don’t care if you’re sticking pins in Sidney Crosby voodoo dolls…well done! I’d have bet on Semin winning the Selke before “Playoffs in 2012″ would be a realistic dream on July 27.

  104. Nice shot Alex!! 3-1 now. Come on Bats!!!

  105. RobertoForever says:

    @Pig legs

    Maybe Hurdle has the over

  106. DemonDachshund says:

    I can’t believe that Presley got the start tonight… What was Hurdle thinking?

  107. RobertoForever says:

    AP with a HR, now cutch with a double. Lets go bats!

  108. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    twentytwo22, there is no excuse for you being awful, yet you do it every game. Very disappointing.

  109. Jay Jax Fl via New Castle says:

    Top of the fifth. Time to turn it on……

  110. Fort with a two run bomb to left. 4-3 now. Come on offense get it going.

  111. pattonbb says:

    the Fort just said this one is far from over…..

  112. JRay3 says:

    The Fort!!! Keep him in the lineup…nice moves by Clint inserting AP and the fort.

  113. Pig Legs Robinson says:

    I don’t like reading that the Dodgers may get Soriano, LaHair & Dempster after getting Hanley Ramirez so cheaply already. The Dodgers are the closest competition to the Pirates for the Wild Card.
    I would easily take Soriano with the Cubs paying all but 2 million of his salary, as has been reported. Why isn’t Huntington snapping him up? Soriano is a run producing machine.
    LaHair is no star, but he’d be a decent bench guy. He hits homeruns well. I’d take him if just to keep him from the Dodgers.
    I bet we could have had Hanley Ramirez. The Dodgers didn’t give up much. Shortstops that can hit like him are not a dime a dozen.

  114. We let them off the hook that inning. Pedro swinging through a 91 mph straight meatball down the middle, then looks at a 92 mph meatball in the same spot for strike two, then offers at ball one out of the zone by a mile and K’s. Walker had no luck in his broken bat grounder to third. Need to take advantage of those gifts from the defense that they had.

  115. Pig Legs Robinson says:

    I feel the same way about making sure to get Victorino rather than let the Reds get him, as has been reported being a high possibility. I don’t like giving up Lincoln OR Jared Hughes, but I would make the deal with Lincoln if the Phillies throw in a decent prospect or a good bench hitter. If the Reds are the other main team in the sweepstakes, it makes sense to do what must be done to get him.

  116. The way McKenry is hitting, it is making it very hard for Hurdle to not play him. I hope he does start getting some more starts in a row soon.

  117. Tie ballgame now. Way to come through JHay.

  118. Pig Legs Robinson says:

    Chris Johnson only needs a single for the cycle.

  119. Keith says:

    Who is this Johnson? He’s killing us this week.

  120. Jay Jax Fl via New Castle says:

    Milo is still announcing?????….I remember he and Lanny doing games when I first started liking the Bucs as a kid. Thought he was long gone.

  121. Pig Legs Robinson says:

    I knew that squandering all those baserunners would come back to bite the Pirates.

  122. RobertoForever says:

    Well, that’s a novel approach to a left-right-left batting order.

    Lefty in from pen to get one out.
    Then right in from the pen to face right. BUT, move the lefty to RF.
    Then bring lefty back to mound, and replace RF with a position player.

    I think I saw that in high school, lol.

    But they got the 2 lefty batters out.

  123. twentytwo22 says:

    McCutchen 2 doubles with noone on base, flies out with Presley on and 0 out
    Walker chokes twice with runners at third.

    Our two best hitters are empty jerseys right now.

  124. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    twentytwo22, you are 0 for at least 3 months with you posts. You are the epitome of choking. Some advice, GET BETTER!!

  125. Reading says:

    Reds winning. Cards have won. Just an embarrassingly bad loss all the way around.

  126. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    I really wish there was an IGNORE option on this blog.

    Having to read the garbage that twentytwo22 posts every single game has got me to the point that I really don’t want to spend that much time here anymore.

    Maybe it’s time to turn the keys to The Window over to someone else………

  127. RobertoForever says:

    Wait. Did the Pirates lose?

    I think its only the bottom of the 8th in a 5-4 game. Its not over.

  128. JRay3 says:

    Cardinals win, Braves win, Reds winning, really need to pull this one out.

  129. Keith says:

    Ha! Hand it to Tony Watson for keeping this Johnson guy from the single for the cycle!

  130. JRay3 says:

    Ok, up to the Fort to start this rally off, does he have some more magic in his bat? If things hold up we will have lost four games to Reds since break, need to turn tables back and that upcoming series is going to be very important.

    At least Greinke went to an AL team…still holding out hope we have another surprise coming.

  131. DemonDachshund says:

    @Playoffs –

    Maybe your over/under for tomorrow could be “First ‘End of the World’ Post by twentytwo22: Bottom of the 1st.”

    I’ll take 100 on the UNDER.

  132. Reading says:

    Of course, we don’t get to face thr guy who blew two saves against the Reds.

  133. JRay3 says:

    Fort single, GREAT game…Sutton walk, base hit can tie it…let’s go bucs!

  134. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    I’m gonna be completely honest here. I’ve really enjoyed this season so far. I’ve enjoyed coming on this blog and posting every day. I’ve enjoyed operating The Window, and talking every day with many of you.


    There are a few here that have made me reconsider a lot of things. Quite honestly, seeing them post day in and day out the complete crap that they do is beyond annoying. This is the best Pirates team in a generation….A GENERATION!! And yet some on here feel the need to complain about any little thing.

    My time on here has been fun, but I think it may be time to move on.

  135. RobertoForever says:

    Here’s drama.

    McGehee sat down for a slump against righties and he comes up in the 9th to pinch hit against a righty

  136. JRay3 says:

    YES!….Bases juiced can Marte be the hero? Punch one in!

  137. Let’s go Starling!! Bases Juiced with one out. Get a little hit.

  138. Pig Legs Robinson says:

    A lot of pressure on the kid now. Just a fly ball can tie it.

  139. Mike C. says:

    I’m a bit late to the party,
    but time for Marte to be the local hero.
    let’s see if he has the B*LLS to do it

  140. Jay Jax Fl via New Castle says:

    Come on playoffs, don’t let a couple of knuckleheads discourage you. Who cares???..Some people are pessimistic in nature. Doesn’t mean they hate the Bucs. We can ignore it or laugh it off.

  141. Last AB they throw junk to Starling the first two pitches, then came back with the heat. This guy looks like he will throw junk as well. A little knock ties it, so think base hit.

  142. RobertoForever says:

    McGehee walked!

    Now a lefty in to face Marte, top of the 9th, 1 out, Bases loaded.

  143. Wild Pitch leads to the go ahead run. Z Power!!!

  144. Jay Jax Fl via New Castle says:


  145. RobertoForever says:

    And marte with Sac Fly to tie the game! 5-5, two outs.

    Barajas to pinch hit for Presley.

  146. Playoffs by 2012 says:




  147. JRay3 says:

    Way to go Marte! Passed ball, Bucs lead!

    @ twenty-two22 – #HaveToBelieve

  148. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    twentytwo22, COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT!!!

  149. Mike C. says:

    wow wow wow
    loooool poor lil astros

  150. RobertoForever says:



    Its NOT over!

    Pirates lead 6-5

  151. Reading says:

    Come on Man! Hammer Time!!!

  152. Boise Bucco says:

    Ladies and gentlemen, your 2010 Pittsburgh Pirat Er.. um…

  153. Pig Legs Robinson says:

    Playoffs by 2012 –
    Don’t sweat it. My whole life growing up in Pittsburgh there were these same people who can’t enjoy the Pirates no matter what they do. In 1979 I thought all the those types would finally have to admit the team was good, but even in the World Series, they never would crack character. They will never change. I just laugh at the antics now. It’s no use trying to change a leopard’s spots. Let them soak in their own despair. Enjoy your Pirates.

  154. Boise Bucco says:

    C’mon Hanny, LET’S DO THIS

  155. Boise Bucco says:


  156. Reading says:

    For the record, my negative posts are a way of venting when team is going through the motions and to change the overall dynamic for the good. Now let’s close this out!!!

  157. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    Well said Pig Legs. Well said.

  158. Boise Bucco says:

    ack crap…LET’S GO BUCS

  159. Keith says:

    Wouldn’t be a win without a Hanrattack…

  160. Boise Bucco says:

    @Keith lol

  161. Boise Bucco says:


  162. Boise Bucco says:


  163. Keith, that is a great name for his innings.

  164. Keith says:

    ‘Way to go, Hanny!

  165. Pig Legs Robinson says:

    Nice game.

  166. Playoffs by 2012 says:


    RAISE IT!!


  167. Keith says:

    Guys, I think Hurdle actually coined that a while back.

  168. Great come back. Raise that beautiful flag!!

  169. Pig Legs Robinson says:

    Give it to Starling Marte for coming through with the long fly ball in his most pressure cooked stuation yet in the Majors. I don’t have any confidence Tabata could have possibly done that.

  170. Boise Bucco says:

    Sucks seeing the Astros look like the post-’09 trade-deadline Bucs, but we were all there for it. They’ll be back.

    Haha and battling the Angels and Rangers!

  171. Mike C. says:

    tough team win
    Hanny always makes it nerve racking but always seems to get the job done.
    can’t believe how few BSs he has this year. just makes u shake ur head and say good job.
    Great Game Boys!

  172. Pig Legs Robinson says:

    Mike C. –
    Anyone who’s ever suffered through a Mike Williams save attempt can vouche for that.

  173. Mike C. says:

    @Boise Sucks more the Astros moving out of the NLC next year lol would have loved to face em a few more years.

  174. twentytwo22 says:

    This win could be the start of something big. I expect this offense to get more consistent throughout the game.

  175. Playoffs by 2012 says:

    WOW, WOW, WOW!! What a game!! Never say die, never say die. The UNDER wins tonight, and twentytwo22 is a jack@ss. Thanks to all who played.

    Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) ** 1400
    pattonbb ** 1200
    JRay3 ** 1175
    Mlrgenuine ** 1150
    Nate83 ** 1040
    radio wave ** 1008
    dcpinpgh ** 750
    Steve J Smith ** 700
    Chico ** 680
    manny_sanguine ** 600
    stuart66 ** 555
    Mike C. ** 550
    Naje ** 550
    crkkid ** 525
    DemonDachshund ** 510
    cosmo ** 500
    JohninOshkosh ** 450
    Bizrow ** 445
    Slack Boss ** 410
    Curt ** 400
    JD ** 375
    JMB ** 350
    dcpfjr ** 350
    Evan ** 328
    MarkV ** 325
    jeffsbar ** 300
    JaxBuc ** 250
    cmat0829 ** 250
    likeabugonarug ** 207
    RobertoForever ** 205
    Absolute59 ** 200
    Bucco_Jax ** 199
    Officer Mancuso ** 180
    lawnbeaver ** 150
    Milo Hamilton ** 125
    milo66 ** 100
    lckythump ** 100
    McG ** 100
    Sir Lochsby ** 50
    Hal Smith ** 50
    Arriba Wilver ** 30
    JUCOfan ** 25
    Jay G -Jacksonville FL via New Castle ** EVEN
    Karen22 ** EVEN
    swissvaletoarizonapat ** EVEN
    NMR ** EVEN
    Dan1283 ** EVEN
    Drew 71 ** EVEN
    buggee ** EVEN
    TK ** EVEN
    tmp444 ** -45
    Stickyweb ** -100
    Petro Steel ** -100
    Joe Bucco ** -100
    K. PenFan ** -100
    Kevin ** -150
    OZ ** -250
    GlassHalfFull ** -305
    Pants-n-at ** -350
    bman ** -445
    Kevin S ** -500
    Boise Bucco ** -500
    bob hasis ** -650
    TDB1977 ** -1040

  176. Reading says:

    The Marte sacrifice fly was totally clutch in that it was driven deep enough to get the run in, but more importantly, get Sutton from second to third to set up winning run. Totally came through in a huge spot.

  177. Drew71 says:

    Walk past Roberto’s statue on the left. Pass Willie’s. Head to the next corner of the building. Left field corner, except outside.


    Marte’s statue.

  178. Joey Bats says:

    LOL ….hopefully, they award Cutch a honorary “picnic table” for his 2012 MVP season !!

  179. LuckyNKentucky says:

    You’re confused, Drew. That’s the statue of the new, slim, trim, bike-riding Barry Bonds.

  180. Naje says:

    Keep the faith my man… don’t let a ridiculous perspective skew your own… it’s caustic, ugly and based in nothing except his (22’s) own fantasy world. In other words, it’s the depth of yinzerville.

    This team is good… something special here… thanks for providing a great outlet for so many of us with the window…

  181. The Gunner says:

    @ Jay Jax Fl via New Castle @ 121

    Milo had the unenviable task of replacing a legend, Bob Prince. He was doomed from the gitgo. Glad to hear he is still active – he has to be around 86 years old or so.

  182. Milo Hamilton says:

    Milo is retiring after this season. I never met him but word is he was pretty difficult when he was here. Difficult but professional. Would knock out commercials on the 1st take regularly.

    I did have the pleasure to meet Bob Prince. And he was exactly how you would have imagined. “What can I do for you laddie ?” I’ll never forget it.

    DK: Sounds to me like you and our Gunner should swap out nicknames.

  183. LuckyNKentucky says:


    I think someone said at the beginning of this season that Milo announced this would be his last. He and Lanny supposedly didn’t hit it off, but he actually outlasted Lanny in the business.


    Ditto Naje.

  184. Mosca says:

    @Playoffs by 2012, I wouldn’t normally give you unsolicited advice, but it sort of sounds like you’re asking for some help when you complain that live-blogging the game is getting you down. I “watch” these games on MLB 2012, and listen to the Bucs broadcast through my phone, and I come here the next morning and read through the comments.

    When you come to the comment blog it’s just like sitting at the game. You’ll have all types around you, and not all of them will be like you. A lot of them will be, but some of them won’t be. Give high fives to those who you’re sharing good times with, and look past those who you’re not. Some people are just that way. It’s how they enjoy the game. It’s how they approach life. Give ‘em props for coming here and sharing. Don’t interact, if how they’re enjoying the game doesn’t mesh with you. Just imagine that they’re a couple rows over, and then don’t turn and look that direction. But they’re still there, and supporting the team.

    All this stuff takes place inside your head. Everyone posts, and then your brain takes it all and turns it into what you understand it to be. You have total control over what it becomes to you. Just let it be good, and it will be.

  185. Mosca says:

    Prince was loved, but he could be infuriating to listen to on the radio; for example, he’d start telling a story, and go through several pitches, and all of a sudden the count would be 2-1 before he’d get back to the game. It was both what made him loved by some, despised by others, and both at the same time by many. What was best about him was that he was an unabashed homer who wasn’t afraid to be completely critical of players and management. He told it like he saw it.

    Hamilton was a complete 180 from Prince, completely professional, and at the time fans saw that as bland, colorless, and uninvolved. I certainly did. What I wanted was someone who was as much a homer as Prince was, but without the stupid stories that didn’t appeal to us younger fans. I was in my early twenties then, and it was the mid 70s; I grew up with Prince, but by then he was my dad’s announcer. And I wanted someone more in tune, and Hamilton wasn’t that guy. Lanny kind of was, but he was almost like Hamilton’s puppy. And the dislike between the two guys could be felt on the air, through the waves, in the tone of voices and the pauses and the inflections, and in the things said and not said. It was not a good time for Bucs broadcasting.

    I was glad when Hamilton left, and I felt Lanny grew into the job competently. I left western PA in the late ’80s, and didn’t hear a home broadcast until I started picking up the games through MLB 2012, over the last 3 years. The guys now, I haven’t really been able to pick up personalities yet, I don’t really know their names even. But the broadcasts are fun enough, it’s nice to have them.

  186. DemonDachshund says:

    Just a reality check for some out there:

    The Bucs are 9-5 since the All Star Break. They are 8-2 in their last 10.

    If you are not satisfied with their play lately, you really need to readjust your expectations. The Reds will not win 85%+ of their games the rest of the season. They will come back to earth at some point, and if the Bucs keep playing like this, they will be there to greet them.

  187. DemonDachshund says:

    Sounds like the Angels are now out of the starting pitcher market with the trade for Greinke. I wonder if Texas would have any interest in Correia… They’ve run into a lot of injuries in their staff, and there aren’t any elite level starters left on the market that are fully available. (Dempster won’t go there, Marlins don’t really want to move Johnson, same with Rays and Shields, Garza’s hurt)

    Get a prospect for KC (Texas’s system is supposedly loaded) and then flip that guy/use that guy to replace whatever you need to give up to get the bat you need.

  188. Drew71 says:

    I wanna see them do a package deal.

    Of major league players.

    Both ways.

    I don’t care who it is.

    Just so long as Dejan has to serve the soup.

  189. LuckyNKentucky says:

    I’d like to see us keep Correia. We all know “you can’t have enough pitching” and on and on and on. Bedard is close to his limit and Karstens really gutted it out last night. More old cliches: This is a marathon, not a sprint. We have to be ready for the “dog days”, etc. Keep him. We’ll need him. Nobody that much better is available. On the other hand, one more solid bat would look nice. But, even then, we’ve come this far with the current group and it would be great to bring it home with this one.

    Many of my old relatives disliked Prince. I loved the guy, but he could be annoying.

  190. bobhasis says:

    Lucky, count me among your old relatives. There are many reasons I can give – but I won’t.

    In simple words, he was a pretentious facade, like the snake oil salesman from “old wild west cowboy movies”.

  191. Bizrow says:

    I just don’t see us making any more major moves, there is the salary aspect that would make the PBC pay more in talent to get salary relief for a guy like Pence.

    The Wandy trade, IMO, cost us a lot in talent, and a lot of that was so the Astros would pick up, what 18 million of the 30 million that could be owed to him in the next 2 1/2 seasons. Thats the way the PBC has to work, make trades like AJ and Wandy, but get salary relief

  192. LuckyNKentucky says:


    I knew you and I were related!


    I’d still like to have Pence. Sorry, hoggish of me.

  193. Mosca says:

    What I loved about Prince: He was one of us. He made listeners feel like family.

    What I hated about Prince was often broadcasts went like this: “I asked how his aunt was doing, and there’s a double to the gap in right and two more runs score, and he told me that she was doing a lot better and would be out of the hospital by the end of the week….”

    I don’t think we gave up all that much in the Rodriguez trade, not at all. In fact, I think time will show we got the better of it. None of the guys we gave up are appreciably better than a lot of the guys we kept, and you can only put ‘em on the field nine at a time. Rodriguez is a quality starter. Good trade.

  194. JRay3 says:

    @ Mosca – totally agree with you. Owens and Cain are not close to the top arms we have in our system…Owens at best projects as #5 starter and Cain may never make it. Grossman may have been the best talent we gave up for Rodriguez but you have to give to get, look at what the Angels gave up for Greinke…their top position player prospect plus two other top prospects and they have a weaker system but went for it.

    Grossman was not going to crack our OF with Cutch locked up long term and the commitment to Marte.

  195. Jay Jax Fl via New Castle says:

    I grew up with Lanny. Milo was there for a few years, but it was Lanny until a couple years ago. Thought he got a raw deal. He loved the Pirates, knew their history. Like us, he knows Hebner, Stennett, JRay, Pena, Chico, Spanky, etc. Not just Stargell and Bonds. Nothing against Tim Neverett, but he was not one of us. It’s just a job.

  196. DemonDachshund says:

    The bigger issue with the Wandy deal, in my opinion, is that it ties up a lot of money the next two years. Karstens and Hanrahan are likely in the $7-9M next year as 3rd year arbitration players, and Jones and McGehee are likely $4-6M as 2nd year guys. McGehee looks like a non-tender at this point, but the other 3 all fall into the like to keep category.

    I don’t see the team adding significant payroll for future years at the deadline, which restricts them to rental guys. And if they do, they pretty much have to trade one of the guys above to bring them back to the kind of payroll that Nutting will approve.

  197. stickyweb says:


    That’s the down side to Jones’ good year, huh? They’re actually going to have to pay him next year. One quibble with your otherwise good points: if Karstens is a 7 – 9 million man, then the trade makes sense since that’s all they’re paying of Wandys deal and though I love Karstens, Wandys better. I don’t think Karstens gets quite that much in arb.
    No way they tender McG unless he has pictures of NH.
    Maybe the answer is to trade Hanny in the offseason assuming he keeps things together down the stretch and get some young guys in return.

  198. stickyweb says:

    AJ, JMac & Wandy are a nice 1-2-3 at only about 15 million total from the buccos. And besides, Nutting has to bump the payroll at some point, why not after this year? Or has he been lying to us all these years?

  199. Mosca says:

    There’s probably a calculation that a playoff team will generate more income to cover those salaries. I think that’s been the plan, anyhow. We’ll never be top tier, but we can make lower mid without becoming a farm team, I think.

    I don’t see Hanny staying. I love the guy, but IMO the decline is apparent, from last year to this year he loses control when he goes for 96+. I’d keep Jones at the 4-5 mil, and Karstens doesn’t blow anyones’ doors off but the guy can pitch.

    I like Bizrow’s analysis, that making smart money controlled transactions are part and parcel to the team’s long term success. I disagree on the talent part; I think that having depth is the reason the other part will work, and I didn’t value Grossman the way others do. I hope the kid proves me wrong, of course. Players get better all the time, and I never saw him play, other than a couple cherry-picked youtube clips. But even if he does reach that upper value, trading guys like him while they’re in the minors for quality cost-controlled major leaguers is part of the plan. We need lots of guys like him so we can trade some and keep some.

  200. DemonDachshund says:

    @stickyweb –

    I’ll directly answer your questions first, then go into a bit of detail in a separate post.

    I’m giving the team the benefit of the doubt in terms of whether they’ll raise payroll. However, I think they still keep payroll down, to some degree… I don’t see them ending up much above the $70-$75M level going into any given season. They aren’t going to risk losses to compete. I’m not complaining about this, just stating what I see as the situation.

    Regarding Wandy vs. Karstens, I’d certainly agree if Wandy weren’t 4 years older and showing signs of slowing down. Hopefully getting back to a competitive team brings him back, but we’ll see.

    I came up with Karstens making $7-9M as he’s put up back to back good seasons and says average for 3rd year arbitration is $7.25M.

  201. The Gunner says:

    Mosca (is it Angelo aka King Kong??) @ 197

    The Gunner did digress at times for sure. Frankly, Milo was an out of towner who didn’t really get involved in the community. Don’t know if he was arrogant or if he knew it was a losing battle to try to upstage Prince, who was heavily involved in the community even after he left the Bucs. Prince taught me more about baseball than anyone, he was knowledgable and extremely entertaining. He was really one of us, like a member of the family. (PS – I am not a hockey fan but when the Gunner did Penguin telecasts in the late 70s, he was awful; I don’t think he had a clue about hockey. Nevertheless, most of us still loved him.)

    Lanny Frattare worked hard to gain acceptance in Pittsburgh after Milo’s exit and I believe Lanny was successful. Lanny and the Gunner were very close friends and Lanny was fortunate enough to have Prince as a mentor – almost like a business father, if you know what I mean.

    Lanny’s “retirement” was kind of sudden, I thought. Since Lanny worked for PBC and not the radio station, I always speculated that PBC nudged him out the door and framed it with the “retirement” story. This was at the time PBC was trading Jason Bay and other players whose salaries were high by PBC standards. So, I speculate Lanny’s salary had creeped upward over the years and PBC wanted to cut expenses – you know the rest. They didn’t want to go thru the PR nightmare of firing Lanny and experience all the negative press that occurred when Prince was dismissed. So, Lanny retired…………suddenly.

    Lanny was a good guy and I had the pleasure of meeting him many years ago and during our conversation, he clearly indicated how thankful he was to Bob Prince for helping him develop as the Voice of the Pirates, behind the scenes.

    They really should bring Lanny back to the booth, it would be great!!!

  202. DemonDachshund says:

    All salary info courtesy of

    For 2013, the Bucs are committed to the following 5 players for $27M: Burnett, Wandy, Cutch, Tabata, Barmes.

    They have a team option on Pedro for $700K, plus will pay near $500K for Marte, McKenry, Presley, Harrison, Watson, Hughes, and Lincoln. Even if those names change, minor leaguers will likely fill the slots, so $4.2M for 8 guys.

    Going to assume they keep JMac and Walker, first year arb guys, for in the neighborhood of $3M each. Add in GJones for $5M as a 2nd year arb guy, for $11M total.

    The hard choices will be Karstens (3rd year arb, let me change his price to ~$6M), Hanrahan (conservatively ~$8M), and Barajas ($3.5M team option). Even if you don’t keep Barajas, I’d hope they get a veteran to replace him, which will cost you about that amount.

    Keep them all and you’re right at $60M, and you still need a 1B or RF, a 5th starter (likely cheap Locke), a couple arms for the bullpen, and a bench guy or two. Then pen will require a little over minimum, so maybe $5M for all but the 1B/RF.

    Thus, my conclusion that signing Wandy either keeps you from committing longterm salary to the hitter they NEED, OR requires you to give up Hanny or Karstens.

  203. Jay Jax Fl via New Castle says:

    I’m with you Gunner…..Bring back Lanny!!!!

  204. The Gunner says:

    @ 207 – Jay Jax Fl via New Castle

    Glad to hear you feel the same way I do about Lanny. What is sad is you never hear Lanny’s name come up on the broadcasts and he was there for 33 years, 5 years longer than the Gunner, whose name frequently comes up (especially by Blass, who knew him well). But no mention of Lanny.

    Again, just adds to my speculation that he was forced out. So much for this subject.

    Let’s hope Wandy pitches well in his Bucs debut tonight – it’s another must win game for us ‘cuz that damn Cincinnati can’t seem to lose!!

  205. Jay G -Jacksonville FL via New Castle says:

    Gunner…….The stations had to have told Blass, et al, not to speak of him….I moved to Jacksonville in ’91 and hadn’t heard a broadcast in years……When we had the combined no-hitter a while back and Mark Smith?? hit that homer in the 10th, it was all over ESPN…..Hearing Lanny’s call gave me goosebumps…Bring him back….He’s not much older than 60………It’s not like he’s 80 years old……Shame on the powers that be………………….

  206. LuckyNKentucky says:

    I liked Lanny, too. Missed him when we moved here in 1998. I enjoy homer announcers unless it’s a national network like WGN. I doubt they ever bring him back under this regime. I like Walk, Blass and Wehner, too. Something about old ballplayers that add to it.

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