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Final: Pirates 5, Braves 1

By Dejan Kovacevic | Trib Total Media

Looking ahead to first pitch …

Game: Pirates (78-82) vs. Atlanta Braves (93-67)

Time: 7:05 p.m.

Site: PNC Park

TV, radio: Root Sports, 93.7 The Fan

Here is the live box score.

And here is the Pirates’ lineup vs. Atlanta RHP Tommy Hanson

  1. Starling Marte, LF
  2. Alex Presley, RF
  3. Andrew McCutchen, CF
  4. Garrett Jones, 1B
  5. Michael McKenry, C
  6. Pedro Alvarez, 3B
  7. Josh Harrison, 2B
  8. Clint Barmes, SS
  9. Kevin Correia, RHP

Comments

  1. NMR says:

    So long, Kevin.

  2. Hurdled says:

    Next win ties the 1997 Freak Show team.

    Which team accomplished more?

    Which team was more successful?

  3. AJS says:

    Good questions Hurdled. I have a hard time answering them. Though I think I have to go with the Freak Show. $9 million. Seriously. $9 million. And they played even consistent ball. This team had much more talent and reached much higher peaks, making the end result that more devastating. The big difference between the two teams is that the Frak Show had no business being anywhere near .500 and this team has impossibly fallen to the point where they won’t reach it either.

  4. AJS says:

    You know, as ugly as that lineup looks, it isn’t much different than what was being trotted out in June and July.

    Cutch, Jones, McKenry, Barmes and Harrison were often in those lineups. Amazing how the same 9 guys can be so bad in September as they were good in july.

  5. Hurdled says:

    DK, nice interview of Neil Walker today.

    Little disappointed you didn’t ask him about tomato plants though.

    DK: Glad you enjoyed the show.

  6. Naje says:

    DK… Would a clear plan for using a healthy Jeff Karstens be the answer to him returning? Seems like anything north of 150 innings would be an issue. In 2011, he throws 161 innings and was injured… and then injured in 2012.

    I’d try to determine set number of innings for him. Tell him: hey, you’ll start in April and May, bullpen in June and up until the all-star break. And then come back to the rotation after the break. Some type of clear plan that they adhere to based on his health and production.

    Or start him in the bullpen in April and move him to the rotation for May until the All Star break. Point being: this team has to be more creative with finding solutions to play, pay and utilize productive players… and to get the most out of the talent they have.

  7. JAL says:

    Penultimate look at the opposing pitcher

    Exploring the Arsenal – Tommy Hanson

    http://www.piratesprospects.com/2012/10/exploring-the-arsenal-tommy-hanson.html

  8. cosmo says:

    How about following the Corriea plan with Karstens next year. Start until the trade deadline then spend 3 weeks in the pen and then return to the rotation.

  9. JHadar says:

    Pity the Pittsburgh Pirates fan
    We backed our Buccos to a man
    We thought just maybe, just perhaps
    Our favorite ballclub won’t collapse.

    Nineteen years, and then this season!
    Who’da thunk… that they was teasin’?
    Our hopes was low, but they got higher
    When the ballclub caught on fire.

    With pitching crafty, sharp and fast,
    hitters with a home run blast,
    Diving catches at the wall,
    Could it be we’d win it all?

    Yes, it’s enough to drive you batty.
    We even outplayed Cincinnati,
    And when the month of June was done
    We’d beaten up on Washington.

    There we were, we took the lead
    Sixteen over, yes indeed
    Winnin’ games and makin’ Zs
    Playoff bound, pretty please.

    We were happy, we were proud
    We cheered our Buccos long and loud
    We filled the park clear to the last rows
    … But started losin’ to the Astros.

    The Dodgers came and made us blue
    It still didn’t feel like we were through
    But when we got swept by them darn Brewers
    The season headed for the sewers.

    So Mr. Hurdle, our “disdain”
    Comes from twenty years of pain
    We wonder why we’re hangin’ on
    A score of empty years are gone.

    So tell us Mr. Huntington
    When we’ll get our bunting done.
    Oh, we will raise a mighty shout
    When we throw a runner out!

    In the nightmare of the dark
    Hear the drill instructor bark
    “This here bootcamp ain’t no lark!”
    Hokey Pokey Mister Stark

    Us old codgers recall plenty
    Mazeroski and Clemente
    The Lumber Company, Weenies Green
    Even Alvin O. McBean

    Virdon, Stargell, Zisk and Kison
    Season after winning season
    Manny Mota, Jerry Lynch
    They could smack ‘em in a pinch

    But I digress, they woke our hopes
    But left us hangin’on the ropes
    For all the memories that they stirred
    They couldn’t even finish third.

    So we appeal to Mister Nutting
    The time has come to do some cutting
    We’re suffering fans who need a friend.
    Bring the losing to an end!

    You know we’ve had it up to here
    We want a team that makes us cheer
    It’s been so long since we could dream.
    Give us back our baseball team!

  10. Brad, Indiana PA says:

    Just how dumb are we in thinking JKars should be tendered… perhaps Pirates fans should all line up to audition for roles in BMTIB’s upcoming remake of the classic Tom Arnold flick, The Stupids.

    Farewell Kevin! Can’t say I blame you for leaving. At least you expanded your resume to include relief pitching?

  11. NMR says:

    I think it’s far from set in stone that Jeff Karstens is an injury prone pitcher. His shoulder problem early this year might’ve stemmed from the being overworked (relatively) in 2011, but the hip issue is unrelated. Guys get hurt. It happens.

    I don’t see any reason other than money for not making Jeff Karstens part of the team next year. This wouldn’t even be a question on a team without the financial constraints that are placed on the Pirates.

  12. Milo Hamilton says:

    I’ll add, the next guy (if Neal is fired) will be under the same financial constraints as Neal. If you have to non-tender a guy like Jeff Karstens, your payroll is too small & you can’t afford to own the team.

    DK: Unless there’s something else to it. Be patient on this one before assuming too much.

    The money is ABSOLUTELY there to keep Karstens through arbitration.

  13. Milo Hamilton says:

    DK,

    Clubhouse lawyer ?

  14. Thundercrack says:

    I strongly believe that they should tender Karstens.

    But I also can’t ignore the fact that he has been injured the last 2 years….and I can’t remember 2010. Bad luck? Brittle? Injury prone?

  15. Leefoo says:

    TC…agree with #15.

    Foo

    .

  16. cosmo says:

    If you don’t tender Karstens, who are you looking to replace him with, Locke?

    He hasn’t really impressed me during his audition. In Karstens you know what
    you are getting pretty much. When he is heathy, he warrants a spot in the rotation.

  17. Thundercrack says:

    cosmo, to play devil’s advocate – what happens if Karstens does get hurt just like the past 2 years? Then you’ll have to replace him with Locke anyway.

  18. 21sthebest says:

    Frankly, I can’t imagine that they won’t tender Karstens.

    DK: Really depends on who’s calling the shots by then. All of this does. Makes it impossible to forecast.

  19. cosmo says:

    Who’s available on the FA market this winter. Greinke can’t afford him.
    Make another run at Edwin Jackson?

  20. cosmo says:

    TC

    I think I’d be willing to chance it. We can always try some low end FA’s or worst case scenario bring up Cole.

  21. NMR says:

    Speaking of non-tenders, any movement on Charlie Morton?

  22. Thundercrack says:

    some low end FA’s = Erik Bedard

  23. cosmo says:

    NMR

    Forgot about him. Guess I haven’t seen any pictures of his dog lately either.

    He could be a mid season addition. If healthy!

  24. cosmo says:

    After his opening day start I thought we found something in EB.

    To carry over yesterdays comments, FA signings are also a crapshoot or
    piegion shoot just like the draft.

  25. NMR says:

    @TC, re: 18

    So you replace Karstens with Locke. What happens if he gets hurt?

    There’s nothing wrong with depth in the rotation, IMO.

    I still think it would be ridiculous to flat-out non tender the guy, regardless. You can’t tell me there isn’t another team that would take a chance on him in a trade scenario. Maybe thats what Dejan is alluding to with Milo?

  26. NMR says:

    @cosmo

    Charlie is a huge wild card. Through all his struggles, I still think he has a place on this team.

    That sinker ball is the type of pitch that you can tell the hitter its coming and he still couldn’t get it out of the infield.

    I’m probably in the minority on him, but I’m not giving up on the guy.

  27. cosmo says:

    NMR

    As a smart baseball man once said “you can never have too much pitching”

    Don’t know who said it but he was alot smarter that us fans.

  28. Hurdled says:

    Ross Ohlendorf is available.

  29. Arriba Wilver says:

    From the last thread–who was the last triple crown winner? Yaz in ’67?

  30. Milo Hamilton says:

    Wilver,

    Yaz in ’67.

  31. Bradthedad says:

    Walker is a straight shooter and in as nice a way as possible admitted to disappointment in the clubhouse by the FO’s lack of getting an impact player at the deadline. I may be wrong but I think this is the first time a player went on record with ‘nice’ criticism of the FO. I hope BN’s review includes talking to Walker.

    DK: Yes, yes, yes and we’ll see.

  32. Milo Hamilton says:

    Ben Sheets will start in place of Tim Hudson tomorrow, and will then retire following the game. Quite a comeback.

  33. Arriba Wilver says:

    Bradthedad–agree with you 100%.

  34. Arriba Wilver says:

    And if you don’t like Walker’s response, blame the questioner. He asked the question. Neil just answered it truthfully. I don’t think the questioner would mind the blame.

  35. NMR says:

    Talk about crafting a narrative.

    I give Neil Walker far more credit than to infer what bradthedad read into his comments.

    The Pirates got their best second half pitcher at the deadline. THAT is an impact, folks.

    Somebody please tell me how Oakland and Baltimore somehow managed to go unaffected in the clubhouse after the trade deadline.

  36. Arriba Wilver says:

    NMR–did you hear the interview?

  37. Arriba Wilver says:

    NMR–OK, I’m guessing you didn’t. Since if you had, you would know that what bradthedad said wasn’t an inference. I would have been more specific in that Neil specifically mentioned an impact “bat” but ” inference” has nothing to do with it. And if memory serves, Neil did acknowledge Wandy’s pickup.

    This isn’t that complicated. Neil said what he said. You don’t like it? Fine.

    I think you’ve overplayed the “crafting a narrative” meme.

  38. NMR says:

    @Arriba

    I did. And I have nothing wrong with what Neil said. As a player, what’s wrong with wanting better players?

    The only way this becomes a story is if you make the jump in logic that this affected the players on the field. That is where the #allin narrative comes in.

    Neil doesn’t even come close to saying this.

  39. radio wave says:

    Mr. Hadar:
    Loved your poem.

  40. radio wave says:

    DK:

    As a Red Sox fan, I expect Bobby V to be gone by noon Thursday. Do you expect any news from Federal Street that day?

    DK: Not major, no. This will take time.

  41. Milo Hamilton says:

    So is tonight’s game in Bradenton or at Disney ?

  42. radio wave says:

    Yes, we’re in Disneyburgh.

  43. Arriba Wilver says:

    NMR– I agree Neil did not say that. He wasnt asked that. Neither did bradthedad. You think it might be something BN might want to at least explore if he does his review? If Neil said “no problem” then if you believe him, no issue at all.

  44. JMB says:

    @BradtheDad

    +1

  45. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    I’ll be shocked if there will be a change or not to the organization.

  46. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    Put me down for tendering JK. When healthy, he’s done what’s expected of him. NH actually hit this one on the head, except for his continued ramblings after that fact.

    Charlie Morton is a wild card in next year’s equation. Love the sinker, when it sinks. But they made need to pull a “strasburg” on him and watch his inning count.

  47. Leefoo says:

    So, Neil was disappointed we didn’t get an impact bat?

    Too bad.

    ……..
    Dejan, if you think NH is going to be canned, pls say it.

    Foo

    DK: Yeah, Lee, I’ve really been holding back, huh?

  48. Leefoo says:

    Ryan…Number 46 …pls clarify…your sentence construction is like a Hurdle lineup…a little ‘off’.
    :)

  49. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    @Foo

    Yup, saw that later on and was going to post a corrected version. Trying to do my Yoda impersonation.

    here goes, pretty simple.

    #46 Shocked I will if happened anything offseason this.

  50. Leefoo says:

    I have no desire to listen to an opening rant about the NHL.

    Can someone summarize what PRNW said that was so controversial?

    ………..

    As DK said, let’s not read too much into what NH said about Kartsens and just wait. We’re blaming him for non-tendering JK, and he never said he would do that.

    Foo

    .

  51. AJS says:

    DK Says…”It all depends on who is calling the shots next year.”

    What I want DK to say, based on track record with predictions, is that Bob Nutting will absolutely NOT fire Coonelly and all of his upper level managment.

  52. Leefoo says:

    Ryan…Agree, I do.

    Foo

    .

  53. Leefoo says:

    AJS….DK wants to keep that possibility alive, as weak as it is.
    :) ;)

    Foo

    .

  54. AJS says:

    Foo, I missed most of NW’s interview. Boss came by at just that moment. I’m going to have to pick up the podcast on this one. DK did ask him why we shouldn’t point fingers at the players. I felt he kinda danced around that. But other than that I didn’t catch much of what he said.

  55. JMB says:

    No one is getting fired, but BNut should be ready to spring into action if the 2013 team flounders/regresses.

    Anything less than 82 wins is a massive failure in 2013.

  56. Ryan (Nor-Cal Stlrfanrc) says:

    I can do that for hours and I’m not even a Star Wars geek.

  57. Milo Hamilton says:

    The only time I’m shocked by this organization is when they do something that makes sense.

  58. Arriba Wilver says:

    Foo- I think Neil was speaking for more than just him. You want to ignore it and rely on “Neal is God” , keep spouting the Draft is a crapshoot meme. Neal will keep his job, and we’ll be looking at Wagner’s number 33. But it’s all just luck anyway.

  59. Leefoo says:

    DK….number 48 comment…LOL

    So……I can officially mark you down for a prediction?

    Hey everybody….NH is NOT gonna be fired!!
    :)

    Foo

    .

  60. AJS says:

    And to be fair Foo, it was a pretty good rant. I just wish DK would start saying that it will be a long drawn out season lost negotiation. Then they’d be sure to start playing tomorrow!

    Ok I think i went to that well one too many times in the past 5 minutes.

    DK: Yeah, didn’t hear from you after the Steelers’ loss in Denver, either!

  61. Arriba Wilver says:

    Milo@58–ain’t that the truth, brother.

  62. Leefoo says:

    AW…What did Neil say? That because we didn’t get an impact bat, the team felt bad and under achieved?
    BULL! If anything, pitching collapsed our season. And, I’ll reiterate, if he’s got a problem with that, he needs to get over that.

    As for ‘luck’ in, I assume you’re referring to the draft, I don’t make up facts. Not ONE GM consistently picked well in the draft. If they hit on anyone late, it was usually luck.
    If these GM’s REALLY knew a tried and true method to predicting success, don’t you think the success rate after the first round would be higher than it is?

    Why do almost 45 percent of Top 5 picks fail? Those are the ‘no brainer’ picks, my friend. Look at 2009. Ackley, t number 2 is a weak fielding 2bman and 3-5 are either in the minors or out of baseball.

    Foo

    .

  63. Leefoo says:

    AJS….well that ‘well’ is funny….;)

    .

  64. JMB says:

    NW: “I think yes and no. I think we addressed some areas that needed to be addressed. But at the same time, I think from a players’ standpoint, we kind of felt like there could have been a little more done.”

  65. JMB says:

    @Foo

    I dont think PRNW needs to get over it. Actually, your boy NH needs to be aggressive this off-season and improve the team.

    DK: How much money do you hand to this GM to get that done?

    Is, say, $15.4 million enough?

  66. John Lease says:

    OMG. Neil Walker wants another year with Barmes. No GM for him in the future.

  67. The Gunner says:

    @ John Lease – 67

    I am sure PRNW can understand what Barmes says a lot better vs. his previous SS

  68. Arriba Wilver says:

    Foo– funny that in your post claiming that you don’t make up facts you make up facts. And then go on to say that you’re not saying the draft is luck, but That it is. Look at JMB’s #65. That’s pretty much what I remember Neil saying in response to the question about if the players thought more could have been done at the deadline.

    Anything interpretation beyond that is on you.

  69. Bradthedad says:

    The Walker interview was excellent – you get a taste of the positive attitude this kid has despite all the churn. None of us has a clue what BN’s review consists of – Walker is a franchise cornerstone so his opinion matters…I have no doubt he’ll tell BN what he thinks if asked.

  70. Arriba Wilver says:

    Dont know where the “thing” came from. Maybe my iPad isn’t smarter than me,

  71. Arriba Wilver says:

    I’m still with you, Bradthedad. Hunker down, the arrows will keep coming.

  72. Eric Bowser says:

    Attention Neal Huntington supporters:

    1. What were your performance objectives of Neal Huntington for 2012?
    –Rate him as Exceeds Expectations, Meets Expectations, Failed to achieve expectations for each objective.

    2. What are your performance objectives for Neal Huntington in 2013?

    3. If Huntington fails to achieve expectations in 2013, is that enough to fire him?

  73. Leefoo says:

    JMB…thanks….but weren’t these same players supposedly grumbling at the trade deadline that our chemisty was ‘shook up’?

    Which is it?

    Foo

    .

  74. Leefoo says:

    AW “funny that in your post claiming that you don’t make up facts you make up facts. And then go on to say that you’re not saying the draft is luck, but That it is.”

    I am not following you…I have been saying it is a crapshoot all along. No rhyme or reason or continuity between the GMs picking. Feel free to visit that site

    Btw, remember that I also said, if NH is fired, so be it. Just watch what you wish for. Look at the two wunderkinds, Jack Z and Dayton Moore. We’re doing better than them (MLB record wise).

    Foo

    .

  75. Leefoo says:

    JMB….what top prospects do you give up? And who do you go after?

    Remember all the ‘squealing’ about giving up JT or Marte on this blog when we were going after Headley Lamarr and Upton.

    Do we try to sign a FA? Do you think they’d come here?

    Foo

    DK: I’d give up Joel Hanrahan because there are excellent closer candidates in the system in Stetson Allie, Tanner Scheppers and Vic Black. Those guys can all step right in. Colton Cain, too.

  76. Leefoo says:

    Eric…in my estimation NH has done a good job.

    I know I am a minority of one, but so be it.
    :)

    But, if he goes, he goes. That means I would have to “Get over it”.

    Foo

    .

  77. Leefoo says:

    Gunner…# 68…funny.

    Foo

    .

  78. Leefoo says:

    Question:IF the Bucs sweep the Braves and finish 80-82, what ONE game would you look back at and go “What if?”

    Cubs 9-5 lead?
    Padres 7-1 lead?
    Hurdle pulling a dealing Wandy leading 3-1 and Hughes blows it?
    Another?

    Foo

    DK: The first of August. Day after the deadline.

  79. Leefoo says:

    Nobody left here, I guess?

    .

  80. Milo Hamilton says:

    Foo has occupied the blog.

  81. Arriba Wilver says:

    C’mon, Lee, you do say that if Neal is fired, so be it, but 99% of your posts are saying keep him.

    This is what I said: “Foo- I think Neil was speaking for more than just him. You want to ignore it and rely on “Neal is God” , keep spouting the Draft is a crapshoot meme. Neal will keep his job, and we’ll be looking at Wagner’s number 33. But it’s all just luck anyway.”

    So I don’t understand what you don’t understand.

  82. Eric Bowser says:

    Leefoo

    Come on, what defines a quality job by Huntington or anyone who is the GM of the Pittsburgh Pirates and the position they are in.

    And at what point does major league results become the performance objective? How many years does it take…. is it 7 years?

    I really want to hear when that time is?

    DK: Never, Eric. It’s never about the results. It’s about the processes.

  83. cosmo says:

    Foo

    you can look at any number of the 82 loses and say what if.

  84. The Gunner says:

    @ Leefoo – 78

    Glad you enjoyed my post. I enjoy reading your posts a lot. What a disappointing season. I think some changes will occur shortly.

  85. Leefoo says:

    AW….I have said repeatedly that all I was saying is that a) it is too early to judge NH’s drafts and b) the expectations that he should have drafted some depth by now is erroneous.

    I HAVE said that all I am defending is NH’s drafts.

    Bottom Line: I think he has done a good job. Everybody else seems to think he should get fired. So be it. Life is too short to let it bother me.

    If you wanna pile on me, go for it….I’m skinny…I can wiggle out of piles! :) :)

    Foo

    DK: How about the year 2078? Too early for the drafts?

    How soon to determine the Orioles did well on Manny Machado?

    How about Mike Trout?

    Easiest thing in the world is to say, well, ALL DRAFTS are unproductive or lucky. Bottom line is that a franchise like the Pirates MUST be one of those teams like the Rays that IS AHEAD of the game, especially at the draft level. Being at or below industry norm isn’t good enough.

  86. Leefoo says:

    DK…nothing wrong with the process. And, if we get to 80 wins, when’s the last time we won that many?

    DK: Awesome. When is the Process Trophy presentation?

  87. Eric Bowser says:

    DK – Exactly, when today is about tomorrow, now never comes.

  88. Leefoo says:

    DK…I agree with you that I would trade Hanny. As Verducci has said many times, closers are overrated (and I agree), but teams will still give up a lot for them.

    Can’t figure out why Morris hasn’t been used more in relief.

    Foo

    DK: No idea who “Verducci” is, but you apparently missed my joke on the Hanrahan post. Take another look.

  89. Arriba Wilver says:

    Pile on? Really? After 5 gazillion posts supporting your boy? You go the martyr, poor poor me route? Srsly?

  90. Eric Bowser says:

    Leefoo – LOL…. you want to be happy about 80 wins?

    This franchise has had 20 years to be happy about 80 wins, when it is ever going to be about 82 or more?

  91. Eric Bowser says:

    Attention Pirates team employees… please come and support Leefoo and your boys, I’m in the mood to debate.

    Come out, come out, come out, wherever you are…

  92. Leefoo says:

    DK….you and I both know that there are always early risers in every draft.

    I agree we need to be ahead of the game, but how? When you see those historical odds, how?

    Four of the top 5 picks in 2009 look to be busts. They all took what they thought was the best available at the time. Only FOUR guys (I think) have made it from that draft so far.

    Who would YOU hire as GM? I hear Ng’s name being bandied about, but would she be better over time than any of the other GMs in the history of the draft?

    Foo

    DK: Your fatalism is overwhelming, Lee.

    There’s no way to draft better?

    There’s no one who can be a better GM?

  93. Arriba Wilver says:

    Foo –”Easiest thing in the world is to say, well, ALL DRAFTS are unproductive or lucky. Bottom line is that a franchise like the Pirates MUST be one of those teams like the Rays that IS AHEAD of the game, especially at the draft level. Being at or below industry norm isn’t good enough.”

    Probably the most succinct, on point, rational evaluation of your draft position (and the Pirates) I have seen. I guess that’s why we pay him the big bucks.

  94. Leefoo says:

    DK… you never heard of Tom Verducci.

    I quit reading after ‘trade Hanny’.

    Foo

    DK: No. And I wasn’t serious about Hanrahan. Look again.

  95. Leefoo says:

    Eric…80 wins…no, I wanted better, but its an improvement.

    Foo

    DK: It’s 78 wins. It’s a 10-game improvement over a five-year span, this despite much, much greater resources — including money — than the previous management had.

  96. Leefoo says:

    Guys…can we agree to disagree? As in “everyone disagrees with me, but…” :)

    In fact, I’ll do everyone a favor and stay on the Plus side.

    Y’all enjoy yourselves. I don’t stand a chance here, so…….. One on many is a tough battle.

    At least over there, we have some folks who think, you know, NH IS doing a good job.

    Here…I’m the only one and there really isn’t any reason to keep swimming up stream.I

    Sorry I took your time. Shoulda just let it all go from the beginning.

    Take care yinz…no hard feelings from my side.

    Foo

    DK: So, as soon as your assertions are challenged — politely, respectfully — you’re gone? Just like that?

    There’s a LOT more to running a baseball franchise than luck. Citing luck is the hallmark of a loser, which is exactly what the Pirates are and have been for the past five years under this management.

  97. cosmo says:

    Historically, the mlb draft is not determined by first round selections.
    It is not like the NFL draft. I’m sure if you go back thru the years many more later picks have succeeded more than first rounders. I did not do any research on this I’m just saying.

    Where was Albert Pujols drafted?

    DK: All drafts in all sports — except the NBA, obviously — require depth. The Pirates have produced close to zero depth in their five drafts under this management team.

  98. Eric Bowser says:

    Billy Beane hired by A’s after the 1997 season made the playoffs in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006 and 2012. The A’s had nine winning seasons since the 1997 season and gasp, ONE year where exactly 81-81.

    When does Huntington even meet the standard of the Moneyball legend?

    Ok, that’s unfair…

    Let’s compare to the Tampa Bay Rays, oh wait, we could never do that because the Rays cheated by drafting really well even though the statistics state that’s not realistic. It was luck.

  99. Milo Hamilton says:

    Gorkys Hernandez hit his 3rd homer for Miami tonight.

  100. Leefoo says:

    Dejan….did you even look at those links?

    Not one GM consistently found gems after Round 1.

    You rarely get more than 2 usable players per draft.

    I just got this from Bob Smizik “I asked Dave Littlefield about 10 years ago how many players from a draft should make it to MLB. I believe he said two”. Now laugh all you want, but draft experts have echoed that. ONE regular and any number of ‘spare parts’ is a GOOD draft.

    I am NOT making this crap up. Even if NH sucks, that doesn’t change the fact that the draft is major failure for GMs.

    Foo

    .

  101. Leefoo says:

    “DK: So, as soon as your assertions are challenged — politely, respectfully — you’re gone? Just like that?”

    Not running…I just know when to surrender!

    I surrender. NH is a horrible GM..

    Foo

    .

  102. Eric Bowser says:

    Leefoo – Don’t go, I wish more would come and join your side, I know they are here. I think it is commendable that you are at least sticking to your opinion, though I disagree 100% that Huntington or anyone for that matter can’t be judged on their performance.

  103. Leefoo says:

    DK…I KNOW you weren’t serious about Hanny after I went back and READ THE WHOLE THING.

    I said “I quit reading after Hanny’ the first time around.

    Foo

    .

  104. Leefoo says:

    ” All drafts in all sports — except the NBA, obviously — require depth. The Pirates have produced close to zero depth in their five drafts under this management team.”

    I am NOT arguing THAT point.

    I am arguing that you can’t judge NH’s drafts RIGHT NOW.

    Locke 2006 draftee….McFearsome…2007 draftee. They may not be any good, but if you had judged them after 5 years……

    NH’s drafts outside of Pedro may prove to have been worse than DL’s, but YOU CAN’T JUDGE THEM RIGHT NOW!!

    That is my only point.

    Foo

    .

  105. Thundercrack says:

    DK: Awesome. When is the Process Trophy presentation?

    It isn’t a trophy, it is a plaque.

    (good line anyway)

  106. Eric Bowser says:

    Huntington performance assessment

    1) Draft – Too early to tell
    2) Development – Do you see that MVP candidate in centerfield?
    3) Free Agency – Small market team, can’t compete with the big boys.
    4) Trades – Won’t compromise our plan for short term bump.

  107. Leefoo says:

    How have the Rays been drafting lately? Not good. Their ‘luck’ is catching up to them.

    Jack Z had some quality drafts for Milwaukee. All of his drafts so far for Seattle have been underwhelming.

    NH MAY yet convince me he is toad spit.

    I might have to go back and look at Beane’s drafts. I suspect without looking he has gotten most of his young talent from deals (not all, just most).

    All I am saying is that HISTORICALLY, the failure rate ACROSS THE BOARD is pretty steep when you’re talking MLB Draft.

    I am NOT arguing that we need depth, etc, etc. I am just arguing and I have tried to make that clear over and over again, that, in looking at the draft historically and tracking each team, those failure rates occur over and over again.

    We can argue NH is a dud or God, but you can’t argue those historical returns.

    Sorry.

    Foo

    .

  108. Eric Bowser says:

    Great news from Rob Biertempfel via Twitter.

    Jack Wilson will be at PirateFest and special instructor at spring training.

  109. Thundercrack says:

    DK, one thing I slightly disagree with you. On your show you said the Cubs will be greatly improved. You may not have said ‘greatly’ but you seemed to think it will be a lot. I think their record will be better, but not much better.

    DK: With status quo, yeah. They have decent lineup now, a couple of really good starters and unlimited cash.

  110. Leefoo says:

    Like I said earlier…I am out of here.

    I know when I am whipped. I need a safe haven for now.

    Take care

    Foo

    .

  111. Leefoo says:

    TC…Did DK say that? the Cubs are now doomed!!!!

    Foo

    .

  112. Eric Bowser says:

    Leefoo – Then WHEN can you judge the drafts… WHEN WHEN WHEN… answer THE WHEN?!?

    Is it 5 years after the draft?

    So that means, ’08 draft can be judged after next season?

    My argument, I hope you realize is that I’m judging Huntington on MUCH more than the draft.

  113. cosmo says:

    Eric

    Did they find a special instructor for base running ?

  114. Eric Bowser says:

    @Cosmo – Sadly, they have a minor league instructor, his name is Kimera Bartee.

  115. cosmo says:

    Not Judging on just the draft, How about FA’s. There haven’t been many hits in this area has there. For every GI Jones, you’ve also gotten McClouth, Overbay,Diaz etc.
    I would say he has failed 80% on free agents. Now look at trades, though he has gotten better on the trades I’d say about 40/60 with a few TBD. It just that with the shape the pirates were in, you need to have more hits than misses on FA and Trades.
    And I’m not going to get into fundmental development.

  116. Leefoo says:

    Eric…Tim Williams has some excellent draft articles on his site (Pirates Prospects). HISTORICALly it takes 6 yrs for a HS player to make it 2-4 for a college player.

    And…I’m not going away for good (can you hear the groan?)…just not gonna argue about NH anymore. Pointless.

    And, I can’t present the history of the draft any better. People are gonna believe what they want, anyway. IF you guys want to believe we should have solid depth from this draft, who am EYE to argue with history?

    I made a snide comment that after looking at the draft results, I could do as well as these GMs armed with a few draft books! They were that bad!

    Foo

    .

  117. Thundercrack says:

    ‘Gorkys Hernandez hit his 3rd homer for Miami tonight.’

    Impact bat.

  118. Milo Hamilton says:

    Foo,

    You didn’t just go there again, did you ?

  119. cosmo says:

    Did that HR by Jones just cost the FO another 200K ?

  120. Eric Bowser says:

    pretty funny seeing Garrett Jones hit his 27th HR, he’s the same guy the GM didn’t really think much about during offseason and probably will trade this winter because he won’t have the money to resign him.

    I believe Huntington will trade Jones, platoon Tabata/Snider in RF, and Sanchez gets majority of at-bats at 1B. That’s the Pirates way.

  121. DemonDachshund says:

    I just don’t understand the step from “most draft picks fail” to “it’s entirely luck”. The difference between a good batting average and a bad one is about 5%. That isn’t entirely luck either.

    You keep mentioning Jack Z, who’s only been drafting for the M’s since 2009. Too soon to judge NH’s drafts, but we can call Jack Z’s drafts failures??? You could also note that he’s one person… I’m sure the scouting team and development team have an impact on how many players progress through the minors.

    Your argument of getting 2 players out of each draft seems a little low, given that each team uses 30-40 players a year. Seems like even with trades and such as other methods of gaining talent, you’d need at least 3-4 new players per team per year to keep the league stocked with players. Granted, many of those are Mercer caliber, but still…

    Finally, you can look at the Rays or the A’s if you’d like, but if it’s all luck, please explain the consistency with which the Cards get new talent into their system.

  122. Leefoo says:

    Just for grins, here is the great Billy Beane’s 2003 draft:

    Sullivan, Brad
    Snyder, Brian
    Quintanilla, Omar
    Ethier, Andre (only quality guy he got…traded for Milton Bradley and the immortal Antonio Perez…OOPS)
    Majewski, Dustin
    Kim, Eddie
    Peterson, Trent
    Appert, Luke
    Castillo, David
    McGirr, Michael
    Reynolds, Grant
    Lynch, Matt
    Spanos, Vasili
    Ingram, Brian
    Cornejo, Eduardo
    Zambotti, Anthony
    Bondurant, Steven
    Sterry, Vern
    France, Ryan
    Becher, William
    Harrison, Graham
    Corder, Gordon
    Pruitt, Braedyn
    Peacock, Brian
    Towles, J.R.
    Hahn, Cory
    Farrell, Sean
    Horwitz, Brian
    Heuser, James
    Trout, Jared
    Woodson, Alexander
    Cassel, Justin
    Fountain, Joel
    Sollmann, Steve
    Macha, Eric
    Coffman, Broc
    Mitchell, Michael
    Ryals, Matthew
    Kazmar, Sean
    Simons, Zach
    Rodriguez, Josh
    Westervelt, Chris

    Now do you believe me? His 2002 draft was ok, but 2003 was one heckuva suck face draft. And the ONLY good one he got Ethier he traded for basically nothing. Bradley lasted 1 1/2 years and then was traded for Andrew Brown.

    Good thing Beane hadn’t just taken over. Hard to believe a veteran smart GM could draft that dumbly, huhn? But he did. They ALL do, over time.

    If he REALLY knew what he had in Ethier, I’m sure he would’ve taken him higher.

    Foo

    .

  123. Leefoo says:

    Milo…”You didn’t just go there again, did you ?”

    Didn’t go where?…reference a number….I’ve posted 852 times.

    Foo

    .

  124. Leefoo says:

    I coulda swore I said I was leaving.

    Foo

    .

  125. Milo Hamilton says:

    Foo,

    Tim Williams.

    You’re poking the bear.

  126. Eric Bowser says:

    Leefoo – So… if you can’t judge Huntington or anyone for their performance in drafts because it is pure luck, then please tell me… please… how do YOU judge a GM.

    I’m dying to hear the performance objectives….

  127. Thundercrack says:

    “Did that HR by Jones just cost the FO another 200K ?”

    Possible. But I think his metrics just got worse. You know, the numbers under the numbers.

  128. Eric Bowser says:

    By the way, Bob Nutting thinks the draft is important.

  129. Bizrow says:

    Foo, my friend

    Relax, get comfortable

    Keep the passion,

    What I’m really scared of is two more years of being in the same place with the BMTIB

    There is absolutely no proof they know their arse from a hole in the ground right now

    Just sayin

  130. Leefoo says:

    DemonDachsund….

    You’re right about Jack Z, but so far, if you check Seattle’s blogs THEY’RE saying his drafts are underwhelming. You need to get out more. :)

    Here’s a link…YOU look up the Cards…

    I’m done for the night…getting tired.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/draft/draft.jsp#draft_team=&player_name=&page=1&sort_order=asc&sorted_by=team_abbrev&season=2008&draft_type=JR&draft_round=

    But, before I go, here’s what THEIR genius scouting regime picked in 2004!
    Lambert, Chris
    Ferris, Michael
    Haberer, Eric
    Smith, Donnie
    Swackhamer, Wes
    Hoffpauir, Jarrett
    Cody, Buck
    Shepherd, Matt
    Parisi, Mike
    Toops, Brady
    Williams, Simon
    Worrell, Mark
    Nelson, Dan
    Mullinax, Jacob
    Zick, Jeremy
    Scherer, Matthew
    Noonan, Christopher
    Blair, Cameron
    Jesson, Das
    Gabriel, Chad
    Sillman, Mike
    Becher, William
    Andersen, Phillip
    Delgado, Jose
    Miller, Mike
    Sherman, Steve
    Reyes, Christian
    Della Rocco, Chris
    Taillon, Cory
    Marcelli, Brandon
    Baysinger, Daniel
    Tubb, Austin
    Gross, Michael
    Cooley, Brett
    Parish, Brian
    Bova, Chris
    Patrick, Christopher
    Burton, Adam
    Herbert, Samuel
    Dobson, Sean
    Broome, Mark
    Rigoli, Matt
    Grant, Jessen
    Robertson, Quinton
    Pleeter, Gregg
    Johnson, Matthew
    Dinapoli, Nicholas

    Parisi, Hoffpauer and Worrell were the ONLY ones to sniff the Majors.

    I am NOT making this stuff up, dude!!!
    The baseball draft, if you look at it over time is luck and evens out for just about everyone.

    Why do you think we tried to draft some over slots? Coz we had money to spend? Well, yeh, but we went ‘outside the box’ (thinking ahead) to try to buy some highly thought of pitchers out of their college commits. We were TRYING to buck this sorry trend that the historical draft presents.
    Foo

    .

  131. DemonDachshund says:

    Foo -

    Barmes had a better batting average than Cutch in August. Sometimes good hitters have bad stretches, and get outperformed by bad hitters.

    Similarly, sometimes good drafters have bad drafts.

  132. cosmo says:

    TC

    You are so right. I can see in the arbitration hearing NH saying,” but according to our sabre metrics, you are only worth this much”

  133. Leefoo says:

    Eric # 127…your guess is as good as mine. Trades? How they perform on their radio show?

    Most teams, like the Nats, go on runs when they HIT it big in a couple of drafts in a row…ESPECIALLY when it involves pitching.

    Pls…don’t believe me. Go through my posts and look this stuff up yourselves. It’s hard to believe, I know. I didn’t believe it myself.

    Foo

  134. Arriba Wilver says:

    Foo–so, who is your doppelgänger in Seattle who is saying the Pittsburgh blogs don’t think Neal’s been doing a good job drafting?

  135. Leefoo says:

    Milo…why is mentioning Tim Williams poking the bear? He’s an excellent writer and researcher. Was he on here once or something?

    Foo

    .

  136. DemonDachshund says:

    Foo -

    Your evidence is fine. I simply disagree with your conclusion that because good organizations/GMs sometimes have bad drafts, that means it’s pure luck.

    But hey, as you’ve said, people will believe what they want.

  137. Leefoo says:

    AW.. # 135…funny…may your beer spill in your lap. :)

  138. The Gunner says:

    Correia is pitching another good game tonight. Why not bring him back for next year’s starting rotation – assuming he is OK with coming back to the Pirates?

    Can’t get enough pitching, folks.

  139. Leefoo says:

    DD….I would lay odds that the Cards revert to those same failure stats over time.

    I would bet a beer from AW.

    Btw, here’s who they got in 2003. Daric Barton on the first round?
    Two bad drafts in a row from the genius Cards?

    Barton, Daric
    Pomeranz, Stuart
    Dove, Dennis
    Michael, Mark
    Yarbrough, Brandon
    Weagle, Matt
    Pagnozzi, Matt
    Garza, Justin
    Blair, Buddy
    Kopszywa, Nate
    Beamon, Calvin
    Obrey, Kainoa
    Kennedy, Ian
    Reyes, Anthony
    Pena, Omar
    House, Kevin
    Virgil, Jose
    Motte, Jason
    Pals, Jordan
    Burch, Jason
    Drewett, Jon
    Blanton, Matt
    Thomas, Tee
    Gary, Tavaris
    Webber, Levi
    John, Jason
    Wootan, Tanner
    Jordan, Brantley
    Lane, Matthew
    Tamulionis, Mike
    Roper, Derek
    Grimm, Casey
    Mulvey, Kevin
    Eberhardt, Peter
    Powell, John
    Frisella, Paul
    Sinkbeil, Brett
    Brewer, T.J.
    Soteropoulos, Peter
    Castellanos, Ryan
    Merritt, Roy
    Reichelderfer, Ryan
    Markham, Josh
    Micholio, Kameron
    Bell, Tobirus

  140. Leefoo says:

    Everyone have a great one.

    May your depths be charged!!!

    Foo

    .

  141. cosmo says:

    Gunner

    Do you think Correia wouldwant to come back ?

  142. bobhasis says:

    Someone above said, “this is the same lineup we have played all year – why the difference in results earlier on as opposed to now’. Well not exactly.

    These three outfielders didn’t start more than a dozen games together, and rarely 1-2-3 in the order. Unless TBMTIB does something silly about Presley, you should see more of this, and Jones at first as well – a most under-rated fielding first baseman.

    With the purest ball player on the team (d’Arnaud) at SS, and HUGE questions surrounding Walker’s health, there are your middle infielders (who also rarely teamed together).

    Keep Pedro and his league-leading K total if you must, then fill in the gaps and Play Ball.
    and make Barajas the third base coach!

  143. Leefoo says:

    cosmo…is a ‘sabre metric’ like a sword fight?
    Are GI and NH duking it to the death?
    :) :)

    Foo

    .

  144. Leefoo says:

    DD…if drafting wasn’t luck, don’t you think that the GMs would learn how to be a little more successful than less than 10%

    EVERY GM who has been around hits those figures.

    Foo

    .

  145. cosmo says:

    Foo

    I think sabre metrics came from Star Wars. Not sure wasn’t a fan.

  146. Arriba Wilver says:

    Foo–your posts have made me move up from beer. Not strong enough.

  147. Eric Bowser says:

    Leefoo – Sorry, that doesn’t really cut it for me or anyone that says don’t judge Huntington on the success or failure of his drafts but then when asked how to judge him and you say you can’t judge him.

    People in positions of power/authority are in those leadership positions because they must make the difficult decisions to assess situations and sometimes that means reviewing the performance of good people.

    Those reviews can tend to result in a negative appraisal of one’s performance and if you fail to achieve the goals and objectives set forth by your superiors, that usually equates to a warning, demotion or firing.

    I think one can objectively review the performance of Huntington in his handling of his duties as seriously below the needs for THIS franchise.

    This franchise can’t fail in the draft as often as it does, luck or not. It cannot mistake the evaluations of their own internal talent and see it flourish in another environment, can you say Jose Bautista. This franchise cannot afford to spend wasted dollar after dollar in failed free agents.

    You see, there’s a level of expectations for THIS position. It is a hard job based on the market size and revenues generated. You just can’t have someone on a scholarship learning about the job, accepting the same mistakes over and over again.

    If you think the draft is acceptable to write off as nothing more than luck, then the other duties for him are more than enough to have him fired.

  148. keebbuc says:

    Every stupid dog i see during this game just annoys me. Makes me wonder if this is the best it gets.

  149. The Gunner says:

    @ Cosmo – 142

    KC is a California guy and he probably wants to be guaranteed he’ll be in the starting rotation, wherever he lands.

    He’d pretty much be a lock to make the rotation here. The BMTIB will probably be too cheap to pay him.

    KC is a scrapper and it ain’t always pretty but, I’d take him in a heartbeat!

  150. cosmo says:

    Gunner

    KC is a scrapper and it ain’t always pretty but, I’d take him in a heartbeat.

    Couldn’t you say the same about Karstens.

  151. RobertoForever says:

    Wow, just got done playing MLB2012 with the young’un. Funny, but even after seeing the 82nd loss on Sunday, he was not discouraged, but wanted to buy a video game and play some games with the Bucs.

    Wow, foo was poking all the bears tonight. God Bless you, foo. You are a glutton for punishment.

    Couldn’t tell by the blog that the Bucs are winning. Unfortunately, Cutch continues his surrender to Posey for the batting title. The entire lineup is getting on base or getting hits, but Cutch must be sleep-walking. Can’t see the video of course, but would think that with the team having 9 hits, that Cutch would have run into one.

    Correia putting up his a great game that could earn him a winning record. Expect him to seek a multi-year deal elsewhere, and don’t expect he would want to come back.

  152. Nate83 says:

    I’m really tired of the 15.4 million argument. That brought 4 free agents and I think most logical people realize that 4 million dollar free agents don’t make winning teams. Good teams pay that much for one guy like Beltran and then get two other guys for 6-10 million. This argument is silly. Please list the teams that used 15.4 combined on free agents to get all studs or even 2.

    You can’t even go after players other teams want like furcal, currier and kubal with that budget. You get left overs.

  153. Leefoo says:

    Eric/AW/DK, et al

    We’re all gonna believe what we want about NH. I’ve tried my best, YOU’VE tried your best, but none of us are changing our minds.

    Let’s just continue believing what we want to believe. That’s what life is all about. If we all had the same opinions, life would be boring!

    Cosmo….the ‘word’s sabermetrics, not two words…hence my joke.

    May you all have restful nights. AW…sorry I drove you to the hard stuff. :)

    Foo

    .

  154. The Gunner says:

    @ Cosmo – 151

    Yes – I agree with your assessment of Karstens. The BMTIB needs to make sure JK is in their plans for 2013. He is definitely a gutty performer – I like him a lot.

  155. Nate83 says:

    That was supposed to be Cuddyer but got auto corrected

  156. Eric Bowser says:

    Next to last game of the season, 8th inning, you are winning and Resop is pitching?

  157. Thundercrack says:

    Nate
    @#153 I tend to agree with you. I don’t buy that it was totally wasted.
    Plus a good note is that none of it is long term that is going to cripple the franchise.

    I think you have gotten solid defense from both Barajas and Barmes. And those 2 positions were glaring holes for the Pirates in the offseason. And I agree with NH when he says that when you ranked the free agents available they both ranked pretty high for their positions (#3 SS and #2 catcher).

  158. Arriba Wilver says:

    Nate–I get why you are getting tired of the $15.4 million argument, but that’s what happened. If it was doomed to fail, why in the world do it?

  159. cosmo says:

    Foo

    Sorry I’m just a not too smart Pirate fan.

  160. RobertoForever says:

    @Nate83

    Fair points. I also wonder if NH felt like he had a trade that was getting close for Pence or Headley and he was given the red light because of the additional $10′s of millions that would be on the hook. Would love to know the details of the inner workings.

    I haven’t the foggiest what the inner workings on, so its hard for me to say NH is performing to expectations or not. But if BN is setting up fences that don’t allow NH to get $15 million per year FA, its tough to find better than average ML starters for $4 million per.

    DK: Fair point to raise, RF. But my default mode on this is to believe all concerned that this wasn’t the car while also considering the money that went into Wandy.

  161. DemonDachshund says:

    @Foo -

    No, drafting is HARD. No one is arguing otherwise.

    And from your 2003 “Failure” draft for the Cards, you seem to have missed:

    Ian Kennedy, 46-29, 3.80 ERA, 588 Ks
    Jason Motte, 17-13, 53 Saves, 2.88 ERA, 273 Ks
    Max Scherzer, 52-42, 3.90 ERA, 826 Ks (I think 100 or so were against the Bucs this year)

    The aforementioned Daric Barton, with 27 HRs and a career .360 OBP in almost 500 games played… At the age of 27.
    Brendan Ryan, a light hitting SS currently with the Mariners.

    6 other players who made it to the show.

    So 2 above average starters, 1 decent RP who closed for a stretch, 2 solid major league role players, and 6 cups of coffee/bad players.

    That’s a SUCCESSFUL draft there, Mr. Foo.

  162. Thundercrack says:

    Now this may contradict what I wrote at #158, but I have been b*thching for most of the year that the batters in the 7,8,9 spots in the batting order are pretty much automatic outs. Worse than pitiful at times.

  163. Nate83 says:

    Arriba

    Why have a GM at all. Just let bob figure out how to spend his own money. Maybe then he will say damn this is really hard when I remove 80 percent of the free agents from the field of players I allow my GM to pick from.

  164. DemonDachshund says:

    LMAO Mr. Foo, went back and looked at the list as you posted it, and lo and behold, you forgot Max Scherzer entirely.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/draft/draft.jsp#draft_team=138&player_name=&page=1&sort_order=&sorted_by=&season=2003&draft_type=JR&draft_round=

    JR 43 2003 1291 Scherzer, Max P St. Louis Cardinals - Parkway Central HS (MO) .162 0 3 0 52 42 0 3.90 826

  165. Nate83 says:

    RF

    I guarantee he didn’t have the green light. He only got Burnett and wandy because the other teams picked up a large portion of contracts. The only way he trades for pence is if we give up way to good of prospects, and for what to maybe make the playoffs and lose in the first round and then be without Hanson and Taillon in the future.

  166. Arriba Wilver says:

    TC–accepting your ratings, how’s about a #1 catcher and a #1 shortstop for a 19 year losing franchise? Too much to ask? (personally, I thought they should have gone after JJ Hardy the year before last, but what do I know). I apologize if I’m being rude, but I’m sooooo tired of the excuses for each and every move they make that doesn’t work out, I could spit.

    Nate–you lost me with #164.

  167. cobra39 says:

    Leefoo keeps saying he is going to go, but he keeps posting and posting and posting.

    Yes, we all know the draft in MLB is a crapshoot, but that isn’t all that a GM should be judged on to determine his value.

    One look at the free agents he’s brought here and an almost-universal failure rate with them is a big indicator of his effectiveness to me.

    And how many AAAA guys can we trade for and hope they hit (and fail miserably) before NH realizes it’s a proven black hole to find talent?

  168. Bizrow says:

    Foo

    I’m not coming in to scratch your back again

    Foo + toast on supporting the BMTIB right now

    My Mom used to say, and my Dad, what so and so jumps off a bridge, so you want to??

    Other clubs mistakes do not make the BMTIB’s acceptable

    Tony Sanchez? Wonderful, underachieving by the BMTIB, and spend that overslotting $$

    Slick Frank has to go

  169. Reading says:

    Late to the game, but the plaque for the Process Award is located next to the plaque for the alternate Top Gun award inside the Ladies’ Room at Miramar.

  170. Nate83 says:

    Arriba

    Just two excuses from me and it has been very consistent. When it comes to the major league team cheap owner and when it comes to minor league team the drafts are just as good as any other team as evidence by the teams winning and the systems ranking when compared to other teams.

  171. Leefoo says:

    DD….neither Scherzer nor Kennedy signed with the Cards.

    Missed Ryan altogether. I blame it on copy/paste. :)

    Light hitting SS and reliever Motte along with Daric Barton who played 2 full seasons and is now a part timer. Not what you want out of a 1st rder? Average draft.

    My original post 4 days ago mentioned that the 80% in the 2nd rd (for example) failure rate is broken down like this:

    All-time great 0.63%
    Superstar 6.29%
    Occasional All-Star 5.03%
    Starter-Solid Regular 8.81%
    Part-time player 16.35%
    Bench warmer 33.96%
    Minor leaguer 28.93%

    Here’s THAT link.

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-772wlhxPhPNjUyY2JiMmItYzJlYi00Yjk5LThlOTUtODkwN2IzMTU5ODIx/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

    Foo

    .

  172. JMB says:

    @reading

    Lol

  173. Leefoo says:

    cobra…that’s because I am on my IPad while watching the game.

    Never again.

    I think you guys have had enough of me, but I wanted to answer DD.

    Foo

    .

  174. Leefoo says:

    Guys…I PROMISE…my posts here will be few from here on out…just got on a roll of passion.

    I want to apologize to everyone for my 1,671 (now 1,672) posts.

    Btw, Bucs Win!!!

    Chatterbox Foo

    ,

  175. Thundercrack says:

    AW (167)
    Not rude at all.
    The top 2 shortstops were Reyes and Rollins. I doubt we could have outbid the Marlins for Reyes, and I would not have given Rollins a long term deal.

    Going after the catcher rated higher than Barajas: Ramon Hernandez got 2 years for a total of $6.5 million. I would have done that. (he did end up rupturing his hammy)

  176. Jay Jax Fl via New Castle says:

    I am happy to have found this little blog site this year……Always read, sometimes chime in……Looking forward to next season…….We have progressed a lot over the last few years despite the collapses…..Progress has been made…..Our minor league system has improved…..Let’s hope the front office boys hit a homer this off season…….l

  177. Eric Bowser says:

    79 wins……

    I can already hear it, if James McDonald didn’t collapse, this team doesn’t go into the tank in the second half.

  178. Arriba Wilver says:

    Nate–so what’s the answer? One that works. One alternative would seem to be using that 15.4 mil on 1 or 2 players.

  179. Thundercrack says:

    Jay Jax,
    Just 1671 more posts to catch up! You can do it.

  180. Nate83 says:

    Foo

    No worries!!!! You where accused of stating luck as the reason the pirates don’t draft better so you had no choice but to defend yourself with 35 emails of fact of how all teams drafts create barren minor league systems.

  181. cosmo says:

    Since Frank has already announced that everyone in the FO is returning for next year,
    the Streak has got to end. We shouldv’e seen the end this year. If it doesn’t end next year then changes must be made.

    IF I’m BN on Thursday I call a meeting of the BMTIB.
    I look at Frank and say “you’ve got some splainin to do Frankie”

    DK: I can announce I’m president of Uzbekistan. Doesn’t make me president of Uzbekistan.

    One guy calls this shot. He hasn’t done so yet.

  182. Nate83 says:

    Arriba I like that plan. This team lacked 2 everyday starters a starting pitcher and a bench. We filled those holes with the budget given. I think we are much better aligned this off season to spend a lump sum on 1 or 2 players. But I would much rather see that amount be 25 million.

  183. DemonDachshund says:

    @Eric -

    I tend to look at the 6-20 record in close games after August 1st, myself. 13-13 instead, and we’re pulling for Cincy tonight and tomorrow.

  184. Arriba Wilver says:

    TC–the reason I said accepting your ratings was because Furcal was also in there. I’d take Furcal over Barmes any day of the week, and I think Elias had him rated higher, too. Yep, he was probably going to stay with the Cards, and he had an injury history. But if we’re going to do the what if’s and reality that’s it. Not to mention trades. Like I said, I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore.

  185. Bizrow says:

    @LeeFoo

    How far can I throw you?

    Thats as far as I trust what you say

    Just sayin

    You taught me that

    80-82 is a wet diaper

    BMTIB must go

  186. cosmo says:

    Don’t know how everyone feels, but I’m pulling for Cabrerra in his chase for the Triple Crown.

  187. DemonDachshund says:

    @Nate -

    Unless they create more holes to fill by dropping some combination of Jones/Hanrahan/Karstens, it’s going to be hard to add even the $15.4M again. I crunched the numbers somewhere around the trade deadline, and had them somewhere between $50M-$60M if they brought everyone back. I am very skeptical that they’d break $70M.

  188. Naje says:

    The draft evens out for everyone except for a team that fails to draft a top talent when drafting in the lofty positions that Dave Littlefield did during his tenure. And add Cam Bonifay. And add that I don’t give one bit of a care about finances forcing their hands to draft Bullington, JVB, Burnett and others in those high spots.

    Results are results. Where was this incredible microscope then? Yeah, DL hit on Cutch… in the deepest draft of the past 20+ years. Awesome. Current development coaches helped put him into the position he’s in…specifically, Gregg Ritchie. (not that I’m advocating any of the current development objectives or methods)

    Regardless, DK, a GM is supposed to hit on top draft picks and for a decade or longer, the PBC management did not hit on more than two of them. THAT, kills a team’s depth for sure… just as missing on the other 40+ guys that are drafted.

    Not going to say that this GM hasn’t built up depth, and his first draft (2008)–after Alvarez–leaves something to be desired, but time does shake this stuff loose. And there just aren’t many organizations seeing the benefit of the 2009 draft, let alone the 2010 or 2011 drafts.

    Are we going to scrutinize Colbert’s drafts like this? How about Shero’s (and his predecessor’s) big-time first-round draft picks that no one, not even your 11 year old, would have had a problem choosing? Then add to that the post Stanley Cup championship playoff chokes…going to blame him for those? Or is Disco Dan and his staff to blame?

    The PBC players, just like the Steelers players and the Penguins players during the playoffs, underperformed… woefully. And Walker pretty much said that in his interview, too.

    Like Hurdle said at, and just after, the trade deadline: if there are any GMs in here (the clubhouse), they better get over it soon. THAT, is a serious problem. Players: you get paid to play, not be amateur GM. Someday, maybe you’ll earn that right. But NH and CH did not throw one pitch, field one ball or swing one bat.

    The players did.

  189. Arriba Wilver says:

    Naje—winning cures a lot of ills. Excuses for not winning masks a lot of problems. The players change each year, but the losing continues . . .

  190. NCBob says:

    In all the despair about the 2nd collapse, I think we forget that NH made
    some good moves this season:

    1) Signing Cutch to a long-term contract before his breakout year.
    2) Acquiring ace pitcher (AJ) from the Yankees when nobody else
    was willing to take that risk. Would we be anywhere near 80 wins
    without this trade?
    3) Trading for Wandy Rodriguez – our best 2nd half pitcher.
    I still think this was a great move.

    So, he did acquire our 2 best starting pitchers without giving
    up any prospects of substance (except Robbie Grossman)

    And not all FA signings have been disasters. KC has won 24 games
    for the Pirates over the last 2 years.

    Have any of the free agent catchers from last year worked out
    much better than Barajas? The Rockies signed Ramon Hernandez
    and he has been a disaster also (.600 OPS). I think many free agents
    don’t work out unless they are elite players (who won’t sign with the Pirates).
    Doumit was probably the best option, but he was sick of the Pirates.

    Ryan Ludwick was terrible for the Pirates last year, but great this year
    for the Reds. Better coaching? Luck? Curse of the Pirates?

    I like Karstens, but he just doesn’t seem to be durable enough.
    I would probably sign him and take my 150 innings if I could get them.
    This is all they were hoping from Bedard. Why is this different?

    If our starting pitching had held out better and we win 85 games
    and just finish out of the playoffs, do we instead think that NH is smart?

    Development does seem like a problem.
    The 11-12 year olds on a Little league team
    seemed to have better baserunning skills
    than some of the Pirates.

    I think Neal has a good plan, but the implementation
    is the problem, and he needs some help.
    Drafting a lot of pitching is a good idea, but
    for some reason, it hasn’t panned out yet.
    BN should bring in an experienced baseball man
    to advise Neal and take Kyle Stark’s place.

  191. JoeBucco says:

    Nice that we clinched another winning month to close out the season. But man, one more win would have been nice. To have AJ tomorrow going for #81, not that it really matters at all.

    But geez… I’m going to miss baseball season.

  192. Arriba Wilver says:

    Like I said yesterday, revoke my fan card, but this win is meaningless—pressure is off.

  193. JoeBucco says:

    @DK – odds on getting threaded comments before next season? good or bad? We’ve been hearing they are coming for a long time now. Still bothers me when I want to respond to something way up at the top of the page. :)

    DK: Agreed. Just had a meeting about this. Will update on Wakeup Call.

  194. JD says:

    Who won the game? I’m guessing the Pirates won, since the post hasn’t been updated. Maybe DK is at another movie.

    DK: In 26 years in this business, this might be my very favorite conspiracy accusation.

    Please don’t ever stop!

 
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